So, I was introduced to these words said by Misty Lee (magician and wife of Paul Dini) from a Podcast they hosted:
And you know, also, someone raised the point in, I don’t know if it was in a forum I was reading but it’s something I’ve heard a million times before - but usually, the strongest and loudest protest over sexy things come from ugly fat girls. And now I don’t necessarily agree with that and I’m probably going to get some awesome flame mail as a result of this, but as somebody who’s relatively secure in her sexuality - I don’t think I’m the hottest broad out walking around - I definitely don’t think I compare to some of these comic book chicks - but that doesn’t mean that I don’t like to look at ‘em. I find the feminine form very appealing and I’m not at all offended by that…
Let. Me. Get. This. Straight.
Would Ms. Lee care to explain what person of intelligence, whatever their appearance, in proper possession of her or his mental health, is jealous of comic book characters? Are we talking the same hyper-sexualized, anatomically incorrect, over-inflated, fatally `roidally ripped, negative-ribbed, under-genitalized, nipple-less, balloon-breasted, spinally deformed, ball-jointed-backed, out-of-plumb, spider-ankled, football butted, collagen-pumped-lipped, shallow-socketed eyed, permanently-affixed made-up, uterus-, bladder- and colon-less, kelp-haired wild hair fantasy as ever came out of a creator/creatrix's sleep deprived imagination?
Would Ms. Lee care to explain her reality testing process? Because from where I sit, it looks as straight as SpiderWoman's or Star Sapphire's spine. (Yeah, I'm fixed on spines of late. If you had my doctors, you'd be thinking about spines, too.)
I can't even jump up two steps, let alone a tall building. I'm going to be JEALOUS of someone who does it not only in spike heels, but a painted on garment I wouldn't be caught dead in, and beats the shit out of the bad guy on top of the building? I haven't unbuttoned the second button of a blouse ever. Why would I be jealous of a creation--not even a real person--who apparently never heard of a button, like Emma Frost? I think sexy when I look at those outfits. I also think, "Impossible." Why? Because they aren't real. I know the difference--and I write fantasy novels.
Jealous of their skinniness? They've been drawn. I could look like that, too, IF and ONLY IF I was done by the same guy who did Jessica Rabbit.
Just out of curiosity, what polls or surveys do you quote to substantiate your claim that usually the strongest protests come from "ugly, fat girls"? Do you have pictures? Do you have numbers? Or are you just being nasty without anything to back up your claim?
One last thing:
Ms. Lee says,
I find the feminine form very appealing and I’m not at all offended by that…
Oh, good. You'd be seriously messed up if you were offended by what you yourself find appealing.
Of course, maybe you believe comics women have genuine feminine forms. I don't know what art or biology classes you took to convince you of that, but if you took them, they weren't very good.
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Comments
Personally, whenever I see that assumption I take it for the bold-faced lie it actually is rather than entertain the lack of logic.
But what kind of rocket science major would actually believe that anyone would be jealous of a comic book character? I mean, are the guys jealous of GL, or Spidey, or Cap?
Oh, wait. Don't tell me.
>>Personally, whenever I see that assumption I take it for the bold-faced lie it actually is rather than entertain the lack of logic.<<
And here I was thinking she was either smoking some serious junk or seriously unwell, because I couldn't entertain that anyone would put that forward as a real proposition. As a lie it's just--tissue.
By the way, if you haven't read it, I found a wonderful mind-scrubbing antidote for that cover the other day. It's a short story by Eleanor Arnason called "Big Black Mama and Tentacle Man," published in New Wyrd: A Wyrdsmiths Anthology (ordering info here), and it's a true delight.
... On second thought - don't try it.
I do believe I'll pass. I recommend cold compresses for you--that and a good, stiff drink. Maybe twelve.
*applause*
Just out of curiosity, what polls or surveys do you quote to substantiate your claim that usually the strongest protests come from "ugly, fat girls"? Do you have pictures? Do you have numbers? Or are you just being nasty without anything to back up your claim?
I remember seeing a claim like this a few years ago on the door of a toilet cubicle at my univerity ("feminists are all fat, ugly women who are either dikes or, if they're straight, are too fat and ugly to get a man" etc.) I responded to it with "Hi, I'm a slim 5'3 woman in my early twenties with long blonde hair, a curvy figure and nicely toned muscles. I happen to have a boyfriend. I think I've a resonably attractive and fun personaility. Guess what? I'm a femenist. There are many of us around, all looking different. All unique." I was trying to illustrate a point, using myself as an example.
The next time I went into that cubicle somone had drawn an arrow from my "I'm a femenist" and written "And incredibly conceited, slut." *sigh*
We can't win.
But you did. You didn't have to resort to sexual slander to score a point. Virtue may not be satisfying, but it beats a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
That's what I tell myself, anyway.
The best spin I can see in her statement is some idea that people comfortable in their sexuality don't need to be uncomfortable with sexiness in comics...but she has to go and make that statement in juxtaposition with her charming mention of "ugly fat girls"; how can that not be seen as saying in some way "if you were attractive, you wouldn't be upset by looking at attractive people in comics"
Not to take up too much of the internet with my semi-exhausted ramblings, but thats just rude and insensitive, even if she didn't "mean" to say that- it's what she ended up saying. And as to jealousy...well, maybe some poor people out there do have the difficulty distinguishing between reality and fantasy that allows for that jealousy. But much more likely is that utter sense of reality, of this "female form" that Lee seems to like so much.
Maybe what bothers people so much about the women in many mainstream american comics is the lack of representation of real female forms. Where people draw women with waists so small they leave no room for internal organs, I remember those girls I pass on the street who look happy to be starving themselves into oblivion... the prevalence of unreal female body images in comics is like that in movies and tv and the rest of american pop culture. Being upset about those representations isn't about being uncomfortable with sexiness, or the female form, or being jealous of women drawn 'just right'. Its about being angry that the understanding of female body image has been so warped, controlled, and restricted... Its about being angry that you can rarely open up a mainstream comic and find women who look like women. Hell, if I was being drawn I would want to look good too. But Misty Lee, don't forget that looking good doesn't always mean looking like supergirl.
That's the thing, though. If somebody says, "I'm bothered by the way Victoria's Secret models look, selling their bras and their angel wings on television during Will and Grace," or whatever. Okay, do you take their words at face value, or do you ask them, "Hey look, are you really offended by that, or are you just bothered by the fact that these women are taller than you or thinner than you?"
You know, this is one of my personal pet peeves. I was flipping channels on TV this evening and heard a similar remark - something along the lines of how ugly girls are the only ones who truly believe the most important beauty is on the inside.
I admit, I am willing to be jealous of comic book characters - but not for their appearances. I would love to fly, or jump really high or run really fast... but I do not, ever, want to look like any of those women (even if it WERE anatomically possible).
But I really, really, really hate the suggestion that only ugly, fat women care (and the suggestion that being fat makes one ugly).
Also, the idea that if I (or you, or anyone) cares I am therefore insecure in my own body image or sexuality. That one really riles me up.
Then shouldn't she love the fat feminine form, too?
I love you more and more with each passing day.
In the mean time I'd like to submit the following picture of me dressed as my take on Poison Ivy for my membership in the 'ugly fat girl' club.
(I mean, I'm no size 6, but I think my 61bpm resting heart rate and 90/60 blood pressure are more accurate assessments of how 'fat' I am.)
Okay! Congrats! That doesn't mean they're not shoddily drawn. Honestly, magicians trying to be art critics...
I'm not entirely sure how to put this one. Speaking as a tall, skinny girl-- not slender, but skinny, my girlfriend is constantly on me to eat more and gain weight-- I'm occasionally confused and a little offended by the cries of "But that's impossible!" when it's a pose I've seen in my very own mirror with less exaggerated breasts (the best example is probably the Frank Miller Wonder Woman cover from last year, where the only problem I see with the anatomy is that corsets don't work that way with breasts)--
Well.
What I mean, I guess is that I do look like that, except for the breasts, and I'll grant the drooling fanboys that much to hold their attention from page to page. But it still doesn't make sense to me. I'm aware of what portion of the population looks like that, even a less-exaggerated version-- and, well, it's not ninety percent of women, as it is in comics. And you never hear anybody saying, "Supergirl, honey, have you eaten enough today? You look spacey." Nobody ever hears Power Girl say "Check out this great new top-- I never thought I'd find one that fit me so well!" These girls never have any of those problems. They don't have to put on a coat after meals, or wear an extra sweater in winter, because they've got no insulation.
That is what keeps them from being real women, for me.
Also:
I find the feminine form very appealing
This sounds to me like she's saying, "Look, I am bi/gay, that means I'm liberated, so I'm a feminist too!"
...and I’m not at all offended by that…
"...So if you wanna be a cool kid like me, stop complaining and I'll see you at the casting call for Comic Fangirls Gone Wild!"
Jealous of the breasts, though, no. It's difficult enough finding a bra as it is. Can you imagine the hell of finding a 26 EE cup?
No, but forget that one. There is not comic book writer in the world who could believably write that one. The cat would just walk off the page. I have six, and I know.
>>Can you imagine the hell of finding a 26 EE cup?<<
Yikers. That sucks.
a) men who freaked out about the bulge in Citizen Steel's pants are "small" down there
b) African-Americans who are offended by racist portrayals of African-Americans are just jealous that they aren't gang-banging, criminal savages >.>
c) Misty Lee's annoyance at "ugly fat girls" just shows her jealousy of "ugly fat girls" and her desire to be one XD
>.>;;
And on and on :D
But what I find intriguing is her choice of vocabulary. What does it really say about her own concept of self that she uses the word 'broad' to describe herself?
"Broad" . . . minded! Yeah! That's the ticket! Broad minded! Uh-huh!
I am a bisexual female. I love tits. Seriously, I'm a tit woman. Big ones, too. I also adore a well-shaped ass and toned thighs. My response/message to the "manstream" comics industry:
Stop exploiting the women I love!!! Stop turning the form I find beautiful into something ridiculous and ugly for a quick buck.
And the next time I read the fucking "well there's still a market for it" argument, I will punch whatever unfortunate individual is nearest to me. There's a market for goddamn everything. The Internet has proven that. NAMBLA fucking proves that. That there is a market for it is not reason enough to cater to it.
Pornography has its place in society. But when porn comics publishers look at an image from a mainstream comic and say "Holy shit, I would never publish that," then there is a problem.
And to Mr. Joe "I have a daughter" Quesada: Did you ever once think about your daughter when reviewing the cover solicits? Did you think of how she would feel about HfH #13? About how your approval of that cover reflects on you as her father?
Shit, I'm pissed. And for the record, I've been stopped by legit modeling scouts a few times, so there one strike against "all ugly fat chicks" hypothesis.
I find myself confused to realise that I've been living a lie. I thought I was a pasty white thin white boy. Now apparently I've been outed as having lived a lie.
Man, I am so confused right now.
There, there. ::patting stephendann on the back in a supportive way:: There are organizations that can help you.
You, once again, Tammy, rock my socks.
I don't think they're listening. I think, like Odysseus, they've stuffed their ears with wax so they won't hear the Sirens of Reason and Intellect.
>> I'm also going to hurt the next person I hear say the phrase "ugly fat girls". Me and MechanicalJewel can form a club. <<
I actually recommend a Louisville Slugger over a club. Better performance record.
Personally, I played with Barbies and read X-Men, dreaming I could look like Storm. I knew better.
Some folks just need something to complain about--even if they, themselves, are *attractive* and *thin*. (I'm somewhat attractive and fat, so I'm not talking about moi. And even though I'm fat, I'm still not complaining--must be the somewhat attractive in me... ;-D )
<<
I think I figured it out when I couldn't make my feet stay like that. ;-)
I mean there are women and men who will consider a woman fat at 105 lbs.
There are women and men who consider Paris Hilton beautiful. I think she's freakish looking with her long neck and thin lips.
There are people who think Grace Jones is ugly, but I think she's exotic and lovely.
So it's not only mean and nasty, but profoundly arrogant to say the people who disagree with her are fat and ugly like it's an incontrovertible fact. Because Ms. Lee [and wouldn't she just be pissed off if we all started calling her Mrs. Dini] is not the arbiter of what defines fat or ugly, and it's just hubris to think so.
But I gues we can't expect much better from a woman who dresses like Zatanna.
Pity her taste in men (Terence Thirteen, anyone?) is excerable,
Best,
Tim
I'm with her
POWER in comics: http://powerincomics.ning.com
EXACTLY!
Ponygirl, my friend, many of us have asked this selfsame question, and gotten back only noise from the Big Two. We persevere.
I think there are whole archipelaoes of things this woman doesn't realize, but this is definitely one of them!
:: steaming ::
ICK! works . . .