But it's been evident to me, actually for over thirty years, that pretty girls don't have it so easy. Sure, guys ask you to dance. They ask you out. They want to marry you. They buy you drinks, hold your door, pay you compliments. But I've had close friends who are really gorgeous, and I've noticed a few things.
My best friend for the last 25 years is a stunner. She is literally the kind of woman who turns heads in the street. And she is oblivious to it, because she was a chubby teen and has a pronounced nose. She slaves over her appearance, and writes the attention she gets off to that. And here are the negatives I have observed, being at her side for long periods of time.
Well, for one, we weren't friends for a year, because I was afraid of her. She was too beautiful. If I hadn't been dating her best friend, throwing us together, we might never have discovered we had far more in common than we'd ever realized before.
One Halloween she got dressed up as an Indian princess/mild dominatrix. We were at a party with mostly friends and acquaintances, and she bowled them out, as she meant to, but one of the guys, an acquaintance, was REALLY bowled out. He followed her around all night, even after she asked him not to, licking her shoes. Even after she told him to cut it out. The outfit was excuse enough, right? He ignored the mermaids, waitresses, and 40s belles.
She and I were in a room during a radio play taping, just talking, when we heard three of the guys in the radio company talking about how it was always the cool ones who really had the sexual fire going on, and that they bet she was really hot in the sack. None of them had even dated her or asked her out; they were just talking about her like they had the right to.
I would see men turn and stare at her as she walked down the street; some would comment, whistle, call out. Some would even start to follow her until they caught my furious eye. Some would even reach under their shirts and begin to fondle their nipples as they stared at her. (This happened with another gorgeous friend of mine.) I got in their faces; she didn't understand. She was used to this. She didn't see why I was enraged.
How many pretty girls are told not to pursue academics because they don't need to? How many are told boys don't like smart girls? How many are told they're just in college to pursue their M.R.S.? How many are re-routed from computer class to cheerleading, from cool instruments like drums to "feminine" ones like flute? How many pretty girls are taken seriously in political arguments or debates on comics minutia? How many pretty comics writers and artists are mistaken for booth babes?
A friend of mine, a heavy woman, once came home in tears because, during an engineering project, she was humping gear all over the floor while the guys hung out with one guy's pretty girlfriend. They didn't even try to help, though that's why they were there, till the pretty girl left. I consoled my friend, but I also wondered if they would have listened to the pretty girl if she'd tried to direct them in the electrical engineering set-up, as my friend did.
I'm not saying it's equal or right, but pretty is just as much of a jail as the lack of conventional attractiveness. Every creep in the world hits on you, and feels he has the right to do so, simply because you're pretty. I saw this happen time and time again with pretty friends, and thanked God that I wasn't gorgeous.
And some of them don't take being told "no" well. White male entitlement is nasty when it comes to pretty women. It's thuggish for plain ones, and vicious for pretty ones. Let's forget savaging each other, and go after that.
- Location:mi casa
- Mood:
contemplative - Music:"You Don't Own Me"--Leslie Gore
Profile
![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
tammy212- tammy212
- Tamora Pierce's Homepage
Page Summary
- (Anonymous) : (no subject) [+1]
- sdn : (no subject) [+2]
- kateelliott : (no subject) [+13]
- babydraco : (no subject) [+17]
- ricevermicelli : (no subject) [+1]
- mrsfrankenstien : (no subject) [+3]
- slashfairy : (no subject) [+1]
- wee_mooney : (no subject) [+0]
- gurmpy : (no subject) [+1]
- kadymae : (no subject) [+1]
- furikku : (no subject) [+1]
- camlina : (no subject) [+0]
- draconifers : (no subject) [+0]
- morgan_dhu : (no subject) [+0]
- rocknload : (no subject) [+0]
- anonshadow : (no subject) [+3]
- starline : (no subject) [+0]
- darkelemental07 : (no subject) [+2]
- (Anonymous) : (no subject) [+0]
- stareyednight : (no subject) [+0]
- andyleggett : (no subject) [+0]
- tekanji : (no subject) [+0]
- q_sama : (no subject) [+0]
- thomwade : (no subject) [+4]
- shilohmm : (no subject) [+1]
Comments
Thanks for writing about this. It's nice to know i'm not the only one.
No, but I didn't think this would be one of those things that might pop up on your radar!
I am really sorry about Lloyd, by the way. I know how much you adored him.
I just wish it were only the comics industry, but it's not. But if we get people talking, we might make fresh inroads.
Yep. I am a fantasy writer. You know how that works!
Aw, shit.
Can't you just look like whatever you feel like, and tell anyone that can't keep to themselves to go piss in his hat and call it male entitlement?
Why let them win?
::hugs::
That said, I have had a fairly easy time of looking the way I do. My parents mediated a lot of possible problems for me when I was young, so that I didn't come upon them until I was old enough to understand them to be problems (if, alas, not necessarily old enough to solve or evade them, but it appears I would have to be very old indeed). As an adult, I have chosen to spend my time with people who don't do this crap. This gives me a stable platform to stand on when I tell the people who *do* do this crap that that's crap right there that they're doing.
That said, I can't imagine calling a guy on the nipple-fondling thing. It's never happened to me, and I think I'd be too grossed out to comment until it was too late.
I have a thing that happens to me when I get very angry. Normally I don't say anything, but when I'm that angry, my face goes numb and I forget my normal qualms. I was livid that this creep would take a normal day and make it into his sicko sexual fantasy, so I told him to get lost. I'm told I look kinda scary when I'm that angry, so he tried to argue and then he went away. Both times it happened.
I had a guy come up to me at a club, where I was sitting with my then-girlfriend, and try to get one or both of us to leave with him and go to another bar. He was finally removed from the club by a friend because it was obvious to everyone that he was very drunk and potentially dangerous.
I'll note that my then-girlfriend was (and still is) absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. I'm cute in the right light, but definitely Rubenesque.
Sometimes, I think that guys are why I'm mostly gay. *grins wryly again*
damnit tho that that's an apparent choice at all. love you with this forthrightness.
when i went to the physical therapist some years ago to rehab a foot injury, i thought, 'i can say hi i'm j. and i'm an alcholic, but i can't write morbidly obese in a clinical description of my body and what it wants from physical therapy? this has to stop, now!' so i wrote that, and the therapist told me i was the first person EVER to use the words about themselves that he knew of.
yes, i'm heavy/fat/morbidlyobese/outofshape. i did notice that when i got up this morning. and how are you? moving right along... -grins-
I'm so sorry.
>>frankly, between the two, i'll choose heavy and my own, than pretty/assumed to be available. <<
Gee, I wonder why? (heavy sarcasm here)
>>i thought, 'i can say hi i'm j. and i'm an alcholic, but i can't write morbidly obese in a clinical description of my body and what it wants from physical therapy? this has to stop, now!' so i wrote that, and the therapist told me i was the first person EVER to use the words about themselves that he knew of. <<
I'm not surprised. That takes real guts. I can barely say "fat."
>>yes, i'm heavy/fat/morbidlyobese/outofshape. i did notice that when i got up this morning. and how are you? moving right along... -grins- >>
8-D
They are pestered by guys all night to go with them and to do one thing and another and I am left on my own to have the night I came out for. I at the beginning resented them for getting attention until one of them actually told me she wished she looked like me so she could have a normal, good night good.
I find it funny that I used to wish I was slender and a stunner and now I wish that I stay the way I am so I can be normal and live a normal life. So, pretty girls do need all the support they can get.
I'm okay looking, but my little sisters are both bombshells. They are also 12 and 13 and when I catch older men looking at them I want to rip their perverted fucking eyes out. ^.^
In any case. My twelve year old sister makes a point of asking people not to tell her how beautiful she is, and my other sister is like your best friend--completely clueless/indifferent to the things the boys say about her. Some things I found in a note one boy wrote her made me want to go Mamma Bear on his 14-year-old-ass, but fortunately (for him) her school let out for the summer before I could go visit her at lunch. She politely responded in the note that he was very sweet, but she already had a boyfriend and he would probably be happier with someone else. She's an artist--beauty doesn't register with her the same way it does with her peers. She likes doing things that ornament the shape of her face and the color of her skin and she's really, really good at it. I can already see the things you talked about hovering on the periphery of her life, and it makes me hate the fact that I'm half way across the country at school. Her intelligence is focused in different areas--photography, drawing, color and style--and people chalk up her average grades and pretty face to "ah, another dumb blonde."
My younger sister wants to model, but she also knows how to tongue-whip anyone who thinks pretty is all that she gets to be. It just doesn't occur to her that the only societally-approved options are smart OR pretty, and thank god for that. I think if anyone said lewd things to her, she might just try to beat them up herself.
She probably could, too.
You could also maybe let drop some stories that have happened to girls you know, so they have an idea of what's out there.
Remember, I too was a big sister!
My best friend in High School/College was the "ugly duckling" who grew in to a swan. Willowy with wavy honey colored hair and blue eyes. OH MY GOD, the crap (and the creeps) she had to put up with.
Dates with her stopped at 2nd base which is why several of her exes called her a tramp, slut, or whore. At the JuCo we attended, a guy who she turned down started the rumor that she was the model for the evening life drawing class, which lead to her being called "Nudie" in the halls or being asked if she would "take it off" for them, too.
So, yeah, being pretty did afford her certain advantages, but she was never "invisible" the way I could be, and while sometimes I resented being "invisible" (because it did hurt that she had them lining up around the door and I had about 5 dates, total in high school), I was (and still am) immensely glad that I never had to deal with the kind of harrassment and pressure she did at that age.
Did you ever read a book called Slut! by Leora Tanenbaum? This is something that happens to a lot of girls, including Tanenbaum herself. She collected their stories. It's a fascinating read, and one of those things that makes you grateful not to have been a pretty girl with standards in high school, or a pretty girl with enemies.
>>I was (and still am) immensely glad that I never had to deal with the kind of harrassment and pressure she did at that age.<<
I know I couldn't have done it. And it kills me that it still goes on. I am sorry you were invisible in high school, though. That's the other death. We're so vulnerable to this stuff then.
And good to come from a nonpretty person, so the words don't immediately get interpreted as "Oh, poor me! Pity my privilege!"
I'm apparently a pretty person, though I've managed to avoid and/or overlook most of the scummy stuff. Most likely because I don't get out much, though I apparently also scare icky people off. My BFF has a problem with getting stared at and latched onto repeatedly, though.
I recommend developing a cold, unwavering, psychopathic stare--no narrowed eyelids, no widened eyes, just direct and very cold. You feel yourself turn to ice inside, and let it slide out through your eyes. And you don't break eye contact. For some reason it really unnerves people. You might see if you can teach it to your BFF.
>>And good to come from a nonpretty person, so the words don't immediately get interpreted as "Oh, poor me! Pity my privilege!"<<
::grin:: Nah. Better to come from a mostly objective observer!
Most of what you describe is on an entire 'nother level though. The nipple fondling thing is squicking me out right now. Yegh.
How many pretty girls are told not to pursue academics because they don't need to? How many are told boys don't like smart girls? How many are told they're just in college to pursue their M.R.S.? How many are re-routed from computer class to cheerleading, from cool instruments like drums to "feminine" ones like flute?/i>
Seriously? People do that sort of BS still?
I remember my friend who was really pretty. Everytime she walked home from school she used to get whistled at by the construction workers near her house. They yelled out things like "Wanna come home with me, baby?", and she was only 15. She just turned up her music and left until one day she got pissed enough to tell them "Even if I did want to fuck, it sure wouldn't be with a construction worker like you." And she walked on home.
but I also wondered if they would have listened to the pretty girl if she'd tried to direct them in the electrical engineering set-up, as my friend did.
Would they have? After all, "pretty" girls can't also be smart!
This was actually a comment I heard when I was on a trip in Michigan.
What the hell. It makes me so mad!
You = Queen.
One aspect of the fat/ugly vs. thin/pretty divide that's been created for women is that it's intended, I believe, to keep us angry at each other, sniping at each other, competing with each other, as well as obsessing over our own attractiveness and appearance, thinking about what are appropriate definitions of attractiveness and whether it's an insult to one group of women to analyse or question the "attractiveness" of another group, and so on.
Because attractiveness is not just a social construct, its a totally inauthentic one. Most people do not form mature, working relationships based on how each other look. Maybe we pick casual sexual partners that way, but we don't choose our lifemates that way. It's irrelevant, but it's been made to appear all-important.
I'm not attractive by this society's standards, and yet I've never lacked for the companionship - or the sexual contact - that I want at any given time from people that I respect enough to be intimate with in any sense of that word. Because when other people have chosen me as a companion or partner, they have wanted the person that is me, for whatever purpose, even if it's just a hot night of sex, and not a theoretical concept of beauty. Which tells me that what I look like is not actually relevant, while who I am is.
But we are being convinced that what we look like is not just relevant but vital to all forms of important interpersonal relationships. And there are a host of different strategies embedded in this overall cultural myth. And thus almost all women, of all physical types, all classes, races, orientations, etc, are caught up in assessing our appearance, not as a matter of simple self-expression based on our own sense of self, but as a matter of how closely we can match and hold to the externally created, and constantly changing, standards (it's called fashion) that are the defining element of how we are expected to interact with the world.
I also note that it's beginning to be directed toward men as well, this feeling that appearance is essential and must be worked at (at one time, appearance was important for men, but not a lot of work as long as they wore the clothes coded for their socio-economic status and occupation). Which makes me think that what was once a strategy for keeping women divided and busy has been adopted by the corporate, consumerist agenda to divert as many citizens as possible from political observation and into a culturally enforced narcissism that both undermines our sense of personal agency and pressures us to be good consumers.
I'll save the whole Cartesian men=mind, woman=body thing and how that is used to support the deflection of female energy into beautification for another time. ;-)
I don't know how pretty I am. I do know this rant rang true to me on so many levels -- men touch me, force me into conversations when I'm clearly not interested, they yell and honk at me while I'm working as they drive by, they make jokes at the expense of my intelligence, they invade my personal space as if they get a kick out of it. And these are all strangers I'm talking about, and the last time it happened was earlier this afternoon.
And I hate how okay it is. My own mother giggles when I tell her these stories, and tells me that's just something I have to deal with. Why? I want a freaking sign that says, "The fact that you find me attractive means I owe you nothing."
And, uh, I've been stalking your journal for a little while, hope that's okay. ^^
When guys start doing that shit to me, I get in their faces. What happens? People look at me like I'm crazy and out of whack, and like I'm the one being intensely inappropriate.
I hate it. And I hate the fact that too many people tell me just to ugly myself up, a little, if I don't want the attention. And I hate the fact that I've had a boyfriend who just wouldn't let go, and I really doubt that it was all because of my personality. He'd've let go if I didn't look like me.
Andandand... thank you.
- Griffin
It's weird what tactics you have to play to avoid creepiness. I often have to play "childish cute" to avoid overt come ons from men and pretend that I don't know what their intentions are. Unforunately, this keeps a lot of people from taking me seriously when it comes to conversations. It's a balancing act.
I've faced the groping as I walk by and the sneers, it's gotten to the point where I do the same others have mentioned, I do things that make me blend in.
The annoying thing I guess for me is there's really no way for me to wear things that hide the figure I have. I have an oddly proportioned body so that I basically have to wear low rise jeans if I want to wear jeans otherwise my hips throw off the size and they're baggy. So, people tend to think I dress in lose rise pants because I want to look a certain way, but really it's because nothing else fits me.
I've come to just ignore the guys and the attention and try to just blend in with oversized hoodies and jackets, but that only works so well.
I agree though, we should stop fighting ourselves and fight these problems instead.
I am appreciative of the doors that have been opened to me because of my physical looks, the money I've made from modeling, the people who have pursued me (some of whom have been wonderful and interesting).
I'm also aware of how I look every time I walk down the street; when newspaper articles about my academic work have been prefaced with a description of my hair, clothing and affect; when I have tried, and failed, to get men to leave me alone when I'm out with my friends. When people have overlooked my friends, or behaved as if they didn't matter, because not all of them are "pretty girls."
I'm not crying a river over myself. I like that I fit Western standards of beauty. I wouldn't change it if I could because, ultimately, I can't imagine doing so -- the world tells me that I look how I should, that I should be proud of myself, that I should even keep working harder so my body will become just like Angelina Jolie's or someone's, not just within spitting distance.
But sometimes it makes you very, very aware of the more general prejudices against women as a group.
I'm considered pretty, but I love to take advantage of people's perceptions. I tend to dress differently for different moods and it gets fascinating, the way I'm treated. The comic shop boys almost died when I could spout X-Men canon dressed like a popstar and that was a reaction I loved, because I was going past their idea of me and forcing them to reevaluate what they thought of me. (And, I'll admit to loving it when guys think I'm hot.)
But, on the other end of the scale, my sound techs at one show didn't listen to me about my sound levels because I was wearing fake eyelashes and lip gloss. It was very much "How much can a girl like you know?" and I was terribly insulted because not only do I try my hardest to learn as much as possible about everything I'm exposed to, but it's my job as a good singer to know my equipment and how it works for me. They couldn't have known I'm quite handy with electronics, but they never even gave me the benefit of basic knowledge.
I have a gorgeous 3 year-old sort-of-stepdaughter. She loves Transfomers, Barbies, pirates and singing. I do my best to give her praise for her cleverness and talent as well as how lovely she looks with her new ponytail, but how much can we give our kids before the world starts seeping in? I want her to be celebrated for her intelligence as well as her beauty and I never want her to be held back for or from either of them.
I can't formulate myself very well. Those are my first thoughts.
And this isn't just a problem related to taking women's intelligence seriously; it also connects to rape culture.
What I mean by that is that there's this erroneous idea -- perpetuated not just by rapists and misogynists, but by people who are otherwise good people -- that women wear clothing for the sole/main purpose of "provoking" men (this would be part of what is often called "the male gaze"). The idea that we might, you know, wear what we wear to please ourselves is mocked and dismissed immediately.
This leads to the line of thinking that if a woman is dressed "provocatively" (and, let's face it, in the modern world young female fashion fits into this loosely defined category) then she automatically consents to sex (usually something like "she was asking for it" or "what did she expect by wearing that to a party?" type of rhetoric gets used).
It also reinforces the "virgin/whore" dichotomy -- meaning the "virginal", ie. "good", women dress "modestly", while the "whore", ie. "bad", women dress "slutty" -- which further reinforces that women need to adhere to a dress code in order to stay "good" girls, or else they are "whores" and in this culture being a whore (or a slut) means that you can't be raped. (None of this is strictly legal, but the courts these days don't seem interested in that pesky detail.)
Anyway, I'm just ranting now, but if you want to read more on how the constructs of "modesty" and "slutty" are both part of a sex-negative culture that oppresses women, I have an article up on my blog about it.
And the saddest part is that it's not just the men making us feel this way. Bad relationships in youth (and seeing the way our parents and families and teacher behave!) shape us in so many ways that we end up adopting some pretty nasty habits. :(
I do have one minor quibble...
"White male entitlement is nasty when it comes to pretty women."
I'd say it is just male entitlement that can get nasty in regards to pretty women. I've found that crosses all races, and I have found it's pretty equally distributed.
Thom
http://thomwade.wordpress.com
Best,
Tim
JAFSWM
I saw this happen time and time again with pretty friends, and thanked God that I wasn't gorgeous.
You don't have to be gorgeous. I wasn't gorgeous and had to deal with a lot of this stuff; I'm plain-faced but curvy. Friends were always telling me I could be so attractive if I just "made an effort," but I looked at what they were getting through making that effort and couldn't see the point. Mind you, I also thought they were just being nice; it's only in retrospect that I realized people honestly thought me attractive. At the time I was convinced I was fat and ugly. But still - had I believed I legitimately had that choice, I wouldn't have gone for it.
Yeah, they got more positive male attention; but the guys who were attracted to them were much more likely to be friends with me. The guys who lusted after them were more likely to respect my opinion, to the point where I sometimes lectured boyfriends because they were not listening to the girls they supposedly loved. "You really think she meant that?" "No, pea brain, I think she told you that twenty times because she likes to hear herself talk." Sheesh!
Attention is all very nice, but I have this thing about wanting people to actually listen to what I have to say...
And, as you point out, an astonishing number of attractive women view abusive behavior as a given. Most of the attractive women I know either have never married (because they view most guys as thugs), or have divorced because they had no voice in the marriage and finally couldn't take it any more. First they didn't tell the guy what they really wanted - but when they did start speaking up, he paid no attention to them. I've seen it happen time after time. Most of the guys I've watched were decent enough to not dump her once she started speaking up, but were then outraged and confused when she finally left them - this after years of being asked to listen, to go into counseling, years of the woman essentially begging them to treat her like a human being and consider her input.
There've been studies that indicate that the husband refusing to seriously consider the wife's opinion when making decisions that will have an impact on both of them is one of the primary reasons for divorce - I believe it.
It's the "she's a blonde, therefore she has no brains" stuff that irritated me the most, but in the long run I think it's the "she's hot, therefore she's available" that causes the most harm. You are dead on right that many guys don't take "no" well - some don't accept "no" at all. I heard about sexual assaults from friends for years, and dealt with it a time or two myself in my twenties (I'm smallish but assertive, which I think kept that sort of thing to a minimum for me). There's also black male entitlement, but white women seem pretty immune to that - black women, OTOH, get it from everybody, best I can tell. *sigh*
I've seen it argued that the whole "pretty/ugly/must have a guy" thing is an Evil Male Plot to keep women at each other's throats - there's some truth to that, at least in terms of impact. There were women in the seventies arguing that a true feminist needed to become a lesbian in order to counteract that whole thing - totally reject the suggested solution (and don't like the whole "true feminist" thing anyhow), but definitely agree on the analysis.
I suspect I'm ranting in your LJ. So sorry.
Great pair of posts, though. Thanks for that.
Sheryl
IAWTC. I remember one school camp where we weren't camping, but were way out of town, and I was sharing a dormitory with a whole bunch of girls who were going to see no one but each other for a week... And were doing full makeup and hair styling every day. To go hiking in.
I expressed my opinion and bewilderment at the usefulness of this, and I had no friends for a year.
And, as you point out, an astonishing number of attractive women view abusive behavior as a given.
And the first people I met who actually wanted to talk to me, I met in Uni. It's taken a few years to internalise this fact, but I'm getting used to the thought that I'm not 'too sensitive' for objecting to being belittled, and that I can go to some places and expect to be treated like a person who is capable.