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****ing GOR

Thanks to PostModern Barney (fourth paragraph down), I learned the hideous news: Dark Horse is releasing an omnibus of three of John Norman's Gor novels. It's in the September previews; Dark Horse's site gives the pub date as November. The issue contains TARNSMAN OF GOR, OUTLAW OF GOR, and PRIEST-KINGS OF GOR. They're the first three books of this long-running series.

Words . . . no, they don't fail me. No one was happier than me when these things fell into the off-the-current-shelves abyss, when only obsessed fans and completist collectors would hunt down issues from back shelves in used book stores. I read about five of these back in the mid-70s with that same awed fascination that I watched my first film of snake knots, before the nightmares began.

Briefly, Tarl Cabot travels from our world to its opposite, circling the Sun just across from us, so we never know it's there! Gor is a fantasy world, where men wear leather harnesses and carry swords, and women wear flimsy outfits. Most women also wear steel collars and steel bracelets, because they are slaves.

You heard me.

Every bed has a slave ring attached to it. If a woman misbehaves, she gets locked to it and spends the night sleeping on the hard stone floor to teach her manners. (Gorean nights are cold, too.) Not all women are slaves--there are Free Companions, free in that they don't have to wear collars. That status is flexible:

" ... when she has been irritable or otherwise troublesome, even a Free Companion may find herself looking forward to a pleasant night on the stones, stripped, with neither a mat nor a blanket, chained to a slave ring precisely as though she were a lowly slave girl. ... A taste of the slave ring is thought to be occasionally beneficial to all women." Why do the men do this? "It is the Gorean way of reminding her ... that she, too, is a woman, and thus to be dominated, to be subject to men."

Oh--Tarl observes that Gorean women are both "beautiful and splendid." May I venture that a fulfilled masochist is beautiful and splendid?

In PRIEST-KINGS OF GOR, manly Tarl discovers mega-hottie Vika of Treve in service to the insect-like Priest-Kings. His attraction goes up in smoke when he discovers Vika's special little kink: she dominates men and makes them sleep in the slave ring! He rejects her after smacking her around. Of course she falls madly in love with him, undergoing humiliations like having her head shaved, being put on display in a plastic cage, crawling after Tarl for a few of his magic kisses. (Yes, they have broadswords and castles, but they have plastic cages.) Another bit of ick: the Priest-Kings incubate their eggs by planting them in their human slaves, including, if I recall, Vika after Tarl denounces her.

edited to add:
lizzistardust corrects my memory here:
Goreans have broadswords and castles, but Priest Kings have plastic cages. As the planet's "gods," they forbid humans from developing most forms of higher technology, with the notable exception of medicine. And the Golden Beetles reproduce by laying eggs in any available creature (it just happened to be Vika in this case because she was bait for Torl). Priest Kings don't even lay eggs. Only The Mother lays eggs, and she was fresh out of them by that book.
end of edit

Other quotes:
On Gor, if a man saves a woman's life, he can lock the slave rings on her. He figures he deserves more than an Earthwoman's kiss of gratitude, see. "One of these girls, if rescued on Gor, would probably be dumbfounded at what would happen to her. After her kiss of gratitude, which might last a good deal longer than she had anticipated, she would find herself forced to kneel and be collared, and then, stripped ... she would find herself led stumbling away on a slave leash from the field of her champion's valor."

" ... on my old world [Earth] I have met several women with something of the Gorean zest for acknowledging the radiant truth of their sex ... Yet with all due respect for the most astounding and marvelous sex, I suspect that ... it is true that a touch of the slave ring is occasionally beneficial."

The other books are more of this--swaggering male stereotypes, rape disguised as sex, with women begging for more. Women who dare to try to transcend these highly limited roles are beaten down, enslaved, conveniently killed by the plot for their presumption, or made to crawl to the father phallus hero--or forced to serve as egg farms.



And Dark Horse wants to perpetuate this. Dark Horse wants to make money with this. I have no doubt that they will. Neither do you, I suspect. This of all of those fanboys who have ordered us to cook for them, opted into hive-vagina rhetoric, demanded that we stop whining, called those of us who are men all manner of names, told us to get out of comics. They will love this world, if they don't know it already. They'll be able to live every woman-beating, woman-raping, woman-enslaving moment. Dark Horse means to enable this kind of hatred of non-phallo-stereotype men and women alike. In these books the heroes are muscular studs who prey on all that is Other.

That's us, folks. Book lovers, gentle souls, people who want equality for everyone regardless of sex, race, ability, religion, ethnic background. All of us who aren't white male jocks--we're Other.

Oh, yeah. Before people start whining about censorship--I'm saying don't buy. I'm saying protest, write, scream, review, and don't buy. Make people think about what these books are saying, and make Dark Horse think about publishing any more omnibuses. They need to know the world has damned well changed.

Comments

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draconifers
Jul. 15th, 2007 03:30 pm (UTC)
Every bed has a slave ring attached to it. If a woman misbehaves, she gets locked to it and spends the night sleeping on the hard stone floor to teach her manners. (Gorean nights are cold, too.) Not all women are slaves--there are Free Companions, free in that they don't have to wear collars. That status is flexible:

" ... when she has been irritable or otherwise troublesome, even a Free Companion may find herself looking forward to a pleasant night on the stones, stripped, with neither a mat nor a blanket, chained to a slave ring precisely as though she were a lowly slave girl. ... A taste of the slave ring is thought to be occasionally beneficial to all women." Why do the men do this? "It is the Gorean way of reminding her ... that she, too, is a woman, and thus to be dominated, to be subject to men."


WHAT. No seriously, what the hell?
That last quote is really disturbing. Ugh.
bellatrys
Jul. 15th, 2007 03:47 pm (UTC)
Yes, seriously.
When I was in junior high, Norman took up most of the SF section in the local B. Dalton's in the Mall (what wasn't split between Piers Anthony and Jack Chalker.) Talk about Othering and giving a girl the message that I wasn't wanted in the fandom boys' club!

But I didn't actually read one all the way through - or mostly - until a couple years later, when I was working as a teen volunteer in the library, and I could sneak one away and read it on break without having to risk explaining myself to anyone. It was Yet Another Drop turning the Mill that led me to, decades later, finally break with my family and indoctrination and self-identify as a Feminist.

In it, an earth-woman - a librarian - who is a frustrated and unhappy soul having to be repressed and self-sufficient on modern Earth (which is shown by her secretly dressing up as a belly-dancer and writhing in private), gets captured by a roving interplanetary slaver and taken to Gor where she is abused and abused and abused and LOVES it, because this allows her to be a REAL woman, instead of forcing her to be cold and masculine in the name of feminist empowerment...

I kid you not at all. Sometimes I get details wrong after many years, but my memory for books read even once is phenomenal.
Re: Yes, seriously. - draconifers - Jul. 15th, 2007 04:42 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Yes, seriously. - anderyn - Jul. 15th, 2007 05:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Yes, seriously. - anderyn - Jul. 15th, 2007 05:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Yes, seriously. - tammy212 - Jul. 15th, 2007 10:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Yes, seriously. - syfr - Jul. 16th, 2007 10:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Yes, seriously. - tammy212 - Jul. 17th, 2007 12:43 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Yes, seriously. - tammy212 - Jul. 15th, 2007 10:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Yes, seriously. - thetathx1138 - Jul. 19th, 2007 07:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Yes, seriously. - tammy212 - Jul. 19th, 2007 08:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Yes, seriously. - thetathx1138 - Jul. 19th, 2007 08:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tammy212 - Jul. 15th, 2007 09:56 pm (UTC) - Expand
Dont Hate - (Anonymous) - Jul. 17th, 2007 07:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - tammy212 - Jul. 17th, 2007 09:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - asatomuraki - Jul. 19th, 2007 06:45 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - tammy212 - Jul. 19th, 2007 12:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - asatomuraki - Jul. 19th, 2007 01:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - tammy212 - Jul. 19th, 2007 08:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - asatomuraki - Jul. 19th, 2007 09:12 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - witchwillow - Jul. 19th, 2007 03:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
Icon luv - shadowspun - Jul. 23rd, 2007 09:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - goldjadeocean - Jul. 18th, 2007 06:50 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - tammy212 - Jul. 18th, 2007 07:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Dont Hate - pernwebgoddess - Jul. 19th, 2007 08:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
sdn
Jul. 15th, 2007 03:34 pm (UTC)
did they say why they are reissuing it? jesus christ almighty.
rarelytame
Jul. 15th, 2007 04:05 pm (UTC)
I imagine they're rereleasing it because they believe there's a market. I'm not sure I understand why these books get people so up in arms. It's just a fantasy. You don't see people drawing up pitchforks and torches at all the bodice-rippers that pop up in the romance genre, and yet, these books are much the same, but with a bit of a BDSM slant to them.

They're just books. If you don't like 'em, don't read 'em. But I don't believe that the reading of them reflects particularly on the state of our culture, or particularly on the real life desires of the reader. I've met plenty of women who enjoy bodice-rippers or other "forced seduction" type romance novels, but are outspoken and would never accept such behavior from their loved ones. Bodice-rippers don't particularly appeal to me, but I'm not going to judge someone who can enjoy them. They're just fantasy. The world's not going to end. Really.
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bellatrys
Jul. 15th, 2007 03:40 pm (UTC)
Okay, Dark Horse
You're getting no more of my money.

Ever.

Even though when I can afford to buy comics, more of them (looking at my shelves) are Jedi and X-wing comics than superhero titles, given that Star Wars (1977) was my dorje moment, converting me into a lifelong fan of science fiction and not just fantasy and historical.

Because if that's what you think of me, you can just do without my cootie-laden girlie slave dollars. Forever.

And I doubt I'm the only femfan who buys more Dark Horse than anything else... (Dark Horse authors/artists, harken!)
rarelytame
Jul. 15th, 2007 10:32 pm (UTC)
Re: Okay, Dark Horse
In case anyone missed it the first time, and in case I was unclear, this previous post is a specific incidence of the form of censorship by manipulation/boycott of a company that I was referring to.
Re: Okay, Dark Horse - tekanji - Jul. 16th, 2007 09:19 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Okay, Dark Horse - rarelytame - Jul. 16th, 2007 11:49 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Okay, Dark Horse - tekanji - Jul. 16th, 2007 12:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Okay, Dark Horse - rarelytame - Jul. 16th, 2007 12:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Okay, Dark Horse - tammy212 - Jul. 16th, 2007 05:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Okay, Dark Horse - rarelytame - Jul. 16th, 2007 05:28 pm (UTC) - Expand
Fallout Question - dewline - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:01 am (UTC) - Expand
Somebody should ask them if they've heard - bellatrys - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:42 am (UTC) - Expand
black13
Jul. 15th, 2007 03:42 pm (UTC)
I read the first of the novels once. Well, partway. I found it unreadable. It took itself far too seriously to qualify as the literary equivalent of a trashy b-movie.

The two movies were dumb fun, though. Then again, they had nothing in common with the source material, except for names and titles.
tammy212
Jul. 17th, 2007 12:23 am (UTC)
>>The two movies were dumb fun, though. Then again, they had nothing in common with the source material, except for names and titles.<<

No, they didn't, for which I was deeply grateful! Given the RL lifestylers we've learned are out there just with the books, can you imagine the havoc actual, true-to-the-book movies would have wreaked?
bellatrys
Jul. 15th, 2007 03:50 pm (UTC)
You know...
Some small press reissued some of the Gor books five or so years ago, and they were actually on the shelves at B&N.

I don't have access to professional sales figures these days, but I don't think they did very well, because there was never more than a copy or two and they stopped being stocked pretty quickly after sitting there for months.

So there is at least a chance that Dark Horse will lose a sleeve, at least, if not their shirt on this.

I think I'll light a stick of incense to Durga Bullslayer today...
naomikritzer
Jul. 15th, 2007 06:02 pm (UTC)
Re: You know...
Yeah, I looked them up when I saw an article about them in Salon some years back. They were available then from the small press. I honestly thought it was just as well to have them obscure but available, as having them available only for an exhorbitant price and passed around among collectors is the sort of thing that fosters interest.
Re: You know... - tammy212 - Jul. 17th, 2007 12:25 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: You know... - lizzistardust - Jul. 17th, 2007 12:39 am (UTC) - Expand
votemarvel
Jul. 15th, 2007 03:51 pm (UTC)
While I often think you see hate of women where non exists, on this occasion I agree with you 100%.

The quotes you've posted from the books have disgusted me, it sounds like the type of flith you find on dodgy porn sites.
tammy212
Jul. 17th, 2007 12:27 am (UTC)
>>The quotes you've posted from the books have disgusted me, it sounds like the type of flith you find on dodgy porn sites.<<

That's why I posted so many quotes. Something that strong, if I paraphrased it, people might think I was slanting it to support my own agenda. Actual quotes are very convincing. I only wish I'd had more.
curseangel
Jul. 15th, 2007 03:53 pm (UTC)
...oh, wow. Just..

How utterly, completely disgusting. I've only heard briefly of the Gor books, mostly through explainations of an internet fanboy of the books who comes 'round one of the communities I'm on every so often, but...

Thank you for posting this. Now I know where not to spend my money, where to tell my brother not to spend his money, etc., etc.

That's just gross. Really. Those books. I can't imagine anyone had the gall to write them, let alone get them published. Sigh.
tammy212
Jul. 17th, 2007 12:32 am (UTC)
>>That's just gross. Really. Those books. I can't imagine anyone had the gall to write them, let alone get them published. Sigh.<<

He doesn't think he has gall. He thinks he's righteous. He thinks this is how men and women really should be. And there are people who agree with him.

Even in the 70s, when I read him, I knew he was full of it.
rpggurleli
Jul. 15th, 2007 04:12 pm (UTC)
I'm just curious, is there anything this hateful toward men in publication today?

I've heard of this series of books before but never read them but they are main stream enough that I know o them. I'm asking if there is anything main stream this hateful toward men? I haven't heard of anything...
morchades
Jul. 15th, 2007 04:54 pm (UTC)
There's a lot of stuff out there that says men are animals and can't control themselves when they feel lust and so its not their fault if they rape someone, that's pretty shitty and hateful towards men
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mamadeb
Jul. 15th, 2007 05:08 pm (UTC)
I've read the Gor books. Or some of them.

They're not only that bad. They're worse. These three are among the best of the lot, actually.

Why?

Because they're *edited*. Around the fifth or six book, that stopped. And after that, not only were they horribly, nightmarishly sexist in a way that demeaned both the men and the women of Gor plus those who read the books, but the writing itself is unspeakably bad. He has paragraph long sentences and page long paragraphs, the dialogue is repetitive to the point of parody (and there are some hilarious parodies out there. Check out Houseplants of Gor for an example that gives a flavor of the books without making you want to spork out your eyes), and it's all just *bad*.

The books won't sell. They sold in the seventies because there wasn't much else fantasy out there, and because they were a porn adolescent boys could get from the Waldenbooks in the mall.
rarelytame
Jul. 15th, 2007 05:11 pm (UTC)
*laughs* Indeed. I've read some of them too. Truly bad writing. Laughably bad. That said, they're pretty representative of their contemporaries. And in any case. I expect they'll sell a bit anyway. They have a fanatical fan-base among the BDSM set. Plus lots of people can't tell bad writing from good.
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realtegan
Jul. 15th, 2007 05:13 pm (UTC)
Wow. I think I tried to read these many years ago, and was so offended that I stopped. And I'm a person who doesn't set down books without finishing them. I have no intention of buying any of these, and Dark Horse just lost "happy points" from me for messing with them.
tammy212
Jul. 17th, 2007 12:54 am (UTC)
>> And I'm a person who doesn't set down books without finishing them.<<

It's okay. If you'd finished them, you might have had an embolism. Better safe than sorry.
mariness
Jul. 15th, 2007 05:18 pm (UTC)
The books also inspired some people to follow the Gorean lifestyle. I think Salon had an article about this a few years back.
jessikast
Jul. 15th, 2007 08:13 pm (UTC)
I think that article was where I first heard about the Goreans too - wasn't there a man who tried to make his wife sign a contract that seemed to be based on the Gorean philosophy, and she was using it as proof for divorce?

I'm slightly squicked, but can't really fault, the people who might roleplay the Gor thing once in a while, as long as there's safewords and all. But living the lifestyle is just beyond my ken. And I really don't have any desire to see the books for sale. Ugh.
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Here's that Salon article - bellatrys - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:19 am (UTC) - Expand
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glamazonwarrior
Jul. 15th, 2007 05:25 pm (UTC)
Have you read the Houseplant of Gor parody of them damn books?
glamazonwarrior
Jul. 15th, 2007 05:31 pm (UTC)
Nevermind, I see someone else already linked to it.
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ratesjul
Jul. 15th, 2007 05:30 pm (UTC)
This is giving me nightmares just reading it.
(Though some of that may be that I just woke up from a nightmare.)
tammy212
Jul. 16th, 2007 05:12 pm (UTC)
>>This is giving me nightmares just reading it.<<

I'm sorry!

No more nightmares--you need your sleep undisturbed and your dreams kind!
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sartorias
Jul. 15th, 2007 05:40 pm (UTC)
Ugh.

Here's a very weird thing: the only two people I ever knew personally who were hooked on that series were women.

I was so slug-slimed I didn't ask why--just wanted to get away. (Especially since one of them, my boss's daughter, actually, and a nightmare to work for as she stole tips from us) kept inviting me over to spend the night at her place. B-r-0r-r-r-r-r-r-!
bellatrys
Jul. 15th, 2007 11:30 pm (UTC)
serious boundary issues there, sounds like
"What's mine is mine, and what's thine is mine, from your cash to your cunt" - and they don't understand why there would be a problem with that...

and a big dose of Entitlement, too - bellatrys - Jul. 16th, 2007 10:26 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: and a big dose of Entitlement, too - sartorias - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
kittylady
Jul. 15th, 2007 05:58 pm (UTC)
The only person I've ever known to read those books (I'm unsure as to whether or not he liked them or merely wasted time with them) was an old roommate. He was about fiftyish when I had just gotten past twenty, and he told me he read them because in the later books, every page was either a battle scene or a sex scene.

Dark Horse will get no money off of me for this.
naomikritzer
Jul. 15th, 2007 06:17 pm (UTC)
It'll be interesting to see whether they lose their shirts on this, as someone noted above. Among those who've even heard of them, these books carry enough of a stigma that I heard another fantasy novelist mock a man she knew by saying that rumor had it that someone saw a copy of Slave Girls of Gor and a towel on his bedstand.

I think stigmatizing books like this is an excellent approach -- specifically, treating it as something that is self-evidently embarrassing to be caught with. Seriously, is Dark Horse going to include a plain brown bag with each purchase so that no one has to see what you're bringing home? What if your friends saw you with it -- your friends in fandom will have at least heard of it, and they'll all snicker at you behind your back when they see what you're reading. And they might tell other people. How humiliating.
rarelytame
Jul. 15th, 2007 07:06 pm (UTC)
I rather suspect that the set of people who find the Gor books appealing aren't easily shamed.

That said, I think those same people tend to treat them as exactly what they are: loosely disguised BDSM porn. That's been my experience of people who read those books anyway. They treat them a bit like you'd treat any other pornography.

(Are the people in this thread anti-pornogrophy, or just anti-BDSM. Or are they just THAT feminist, that they can't understand that different things appeal to different people. Seriously, discounting the bad writing of the books, this thread is sounding like a loosely disguised condemnation of anyone who reads these books for ANY reason. BDSM kink or not.)

The fact of the matter is that Dark Horse probably wouldn't be making them available if they didn't believe there was a market. Maybe they WILL lose their shirts. The BDSM segment is kind of specialized. But then, look at how well the BDSM writers at porn erotica sites like Ellora's Cave, and such. I hear those authors are making surprisingly fat paychecks. This stuff definitely appeals to some folks.
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Tonight on Faux Nuwz - Ad Hominem Attacks! - timeliebe - Jul. 15th, 2007 09:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
Well...that can backfire, too.... - timeliebe - Jul. 15th, 2007 10:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Well...that can backfire, too.... - naomikritzer - Jul. 15th, 2007 11:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Well...that can backfire, too.... - (Anonymous) - Jul. 21st, 2007 06:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Well...that can backfire, too.... - (Anonymous) - Jul. 21st, 2007 06:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Well...that can backfire, too.... - tammy212 - Jul. 22nd, 2007 01:50 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Well...that can backfire, too.... - tammy212 - Jul. 22nd, 2007 01:53 am (UTC) - Expand
oneminutemonkey
Jul. 15th, 2007 06:20 pm (UTC)
Having, in my sordid past, met some folks online who actually RP'ed (and for all I knew, lived it out in RL) the Gorean lifestyle, I am so very sad that there's any intention to make theses books easily available again.

I'd rather see Tarzan and John Carter omnibuses (omnibii?) on the shelves... they seem lacking but worth having around. Gor is just an embarassment to the genre and to us all.

On a happier note, I've begun listening to the audio of Trickster's Choice once again. Someday, I need to get Trickster's Queen on tape. :>
tammy212
Jul. 18th, 2007 11:00 pm (UTC)
>>I'd rather see Tarzan and John Carter omnibuses (omnibii?) on the shelves... they seem lacking but worth having around.<<

There's racism in the Tarzan books--and anti-German bigotry--but not in the Mars books. The women are strong throughout Burroughs' work, and of course there isn't Earth-style racism in the Mars books because the races are different. At the very worst, he was a product of his time, writing no better and no worse than the standard. I'm not comfortable reading the Tarzan books anymore, but the Earth's Core, Moon, Venus, and Mars stuff are still okay.

>>On a happier note, I've begun listening to the audio of Trickster's Choice once again. Someday, I need to get Trickster's Queen on tape. :> <<

I'm glad you like them--Listening Library works hard to do a good job!
elialshadowpine
Jul. 15th, 2007 08:10 pm (UTC)
To each their own, I say.

I haven't read the books myself and have no interest in doing so. The books aren't real; they're basically fantasy BDSM porn. Not my kinda thing, because total masculine control over women is a major trigger, but if someone else wants to read it ... *shrugs*

I don't approve of the books, and I'm not going to buy them. They have a cult following, and I imagine that's the majority of what Dark Horse will reach.

As for real life BDSM... I will say that most responsible people that I've known in the BDSM scene disapprove of the books because of the negative portrayal of D/s. While there is a "Gorean" subset of BDSM, it's generally looked down upon by the rest of the community. (Rather snarkily in many cases, I might add.)
bellatrys
Jul. 15th, 2007 08:20 pm (UTC)
Then you haven't a clue what you're talking about
by your own admission:

I haven't read the books myself and have no interest in doing so

although that's never stopped anyone from opening their mouths that I have seen, admittedly.


The books aren't real; they're basically fantasy BDSM porn.

All novels aren't real. (Duh!) Does that mean that the stories they tell do not shape our minds?

What Gor is, is an angry proto-David-Sim rant of a woman-hating, woman-resenting academic who spends *lots* of each book explaining and articulating a pseudo-scientific philosophy of misogyny, a comprehensive and systemic worldview to back up any and all male subjugation of women, "explaining" why we both deserve it and, subconsciously, *want* it, as Natural.

It's like the misogynists' Fountainhead. And if you don't think that Ayn Rand's novels, unreal as they are, have affected contemporary political realities, then you don't get out on the internets enough.
(no subject) - timeliebe - Jul. 15th, 2007 09:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - elialshadowpine - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:32 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tammy212 - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:47 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Jul. 20th, 2007 04:28 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tammy212 - Jul. 20th, 2007 04:33 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Jul. 27th, 2007 06:09 am (UTC) - Expand
Oh, no - I meant BUSH! :D - timeliebe - Jul. 16th, 2007 02:02 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tammy212 - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:21 am (UTC) - Expand
incandescens
Jul. 15th, 2007 09:14 pm (UTC)
I remember that when I was at university (Imperial College, London, 1990-92, for the record) we had some of these books on the shelf in the science fiction club library. I read one because I'd heard they were appalling. I read a second because I couldn't believe they were all that bad. I read a third because I was hoping the other two were just anomalies. Then I stopped.

It is a matter of great comfort to me that those damn books never got taken out by anyone while I was there. (And given that I spent most of my lunchtimes there, I'd have noticed.)
tekanji
Jul. 15th, 2007 10:34 pm (UTC)
You left out the best part of the Gor novels -- it is taken for granted that women, by nature, need and want to be slaves. In fact, all that "I want to be seen a human being" stuff is unnatural and leads to unhappiness, but when they embrace the true knowledge that they belong to a man they find out that their lives have never been so happy and fulfilled!

...

I'm not even joking.

Did you know that there are Gorean lifestylers? I'm generally pretty kink-friendly (even with 24/7 Master/slave relationships, though personally they give me the willies, but as long as both parties consent) but the fact that Goreans operate on the assumption that all women want/need this tips it into emotional abuse territory. Because if a man truly believes in the Gorean lifestyle, he will beat, rape, emotionally abuse, and do any number of horrible things to a woman in order to get her to "realize" that she innately wants him to dominate and hurt her.

And, I mean, I've read some excerpts on the internet and the writing style is bad. Like Argonathon bad. Like, crap I wrote in 7th grade bad. It saddens me that Dark Horse is going to make money off of something like that.

I mean, isn't there something better to invest their money in? Like, I dunno, finding some new talent to publish? Talent that doesn't read like an abusive Nice Guy (TM) teenager venting his anger that yet another woman has rejected his slobbering, overbearing, creepy advances?
tammy212
Jul. 18th, 2007 11:11 pm (UTC)
>>You left out the best part of the Gor novels -- it is taken for granted that women, by nature, need and want to be slaves. In fact, all that "I want to be seen a human being" stuff is unnatural and leads to unhappiness, but when they embrace the true knowledge that they belong to a man they find out that their lives have never been so happy and fulfilled!<<

Oh, yeah.

That.

I musta blocked on that.

You had to remind me, didn't you?

>>I'm not even joking. <<

I know you're not.

>>Did you know that there are Gorean lifestylers?<<

So I've been informed.

>> I'm generally pretty kink-friendly <<

I am, too!

>>(even with 24/7 Master/slave relationships, though personally they give me the willies, but as long as both parties consent) <<

Same here, on both counts. Why would you want to let someone else run your life? But to each her/his own. Consenting adults can do their thing and I keep my nose out of it.

>>but the fact that Goreans operate on the assumption that all women want/need this tips it into emotional abuse territory. <<

And there's that whole "dead wrong" aspect. Dead being more applicable the closer they come to me.

>>Because if a man truly believes in the Gorean lifestyle, he will beat, rape, emotionally abuse, and do any number of horrible things to a woman in order to get her to "realize" that she innately wants him to dominate and hurt her.<<

Exactly. And it's no good saying no one will really do that based on a book. Look at MEIN KAMPF. THE TURNER DIARIES and PROTOCOLS have already been mentioned. People use books to justify all kinds of things.

>>I mean, isn't there something better to invest their money in? Like, I dunno, finding some new talent to publish? <<

You would think so!
(Deleted comment)
tammy212
Jul. 18th, 2007 11:12 pm (UTC)
>>Good thing I'm a poor student. I don't want to afford those books<<

You have too much sense to buy them if you could.
ravelda
Jul. 15th, 2007 11:03 pm (UTC)
Oh. My. Gosh. I can't believe how disgusting that is. It makes me shudder.

P.S. You have a BLOG? I never knew. Allow me to friend you.
tammy212
Jul. 16th, 2007 01:34 am (UTC)
>> You have a BLOG? I never knew.<<

It's sort of an open secret.

>> Allow me to friend you.<<

But of course!
(no subject) - ravelda - Jul. 16th, 2007 05:53 am (UTC) - Expand
rubyfire
Jul. 15th, 2007 11:38 pm (UTC)
Mystery Science Theater 3000 parodied a movie based on one of the Gor novels. "Outlaw of Gor" has proved that a movie cannot be taken seriously if you're hero's name is Cabot. It also featured waaaay more Buffalo shots than ever needed.

So yeah, it sounds like a real awesome idea to base a comic book series on a crappy book series that couldn't even have a decent movie based on it.
callistra
Jul. 16th, 2007 01:03 am (UTC)
I didn't think it was going to be a comic, just a straight reprint.
(no subject) - timeliebe - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:26 am (UTC) - Expand
andyleggett
Jul. 16th, 2007 12:47 am (UTC)
I approve of your musical tastes...also, I find that summary absolutely horrifying.

And as to the fla...er, I mean rarelytame down there, isn't it fairly obvious that books are by their very nature meant to communicate ideas? Of course, they cannot beam beliefs into our head, but build upon each individual's preconception, so that no one ever perceives a book the exact same way. This is why different people have differing opinions--which I would suppose would explain why some people here are dismissing this as BSDM porn, while others are attacking it as blatant (and, by the sounds of it) aggressive misogny and subjugtion of women.

It is important to remember, I think, that often books (yes, fiction, too--one might say *especially* fiction) are used to propogate ideas with the specific intent of persuading or informing people. One could take this book (I've never read them, though I might check it out just to see how incensed it may make my not-so-inner feminist) as an poorly-written allegory about a misogynist utopia---this also seems likely, considering the time period, it may likely have been a direct reaction towards the feminist movement, hidden as fantasy or even BDSM.

*shrug* Of course, that is just my mostly uninformed opinion...
bellatrys
Jul. 16th, 2007 01:11 am (UTC)
You might be interested to know
that in the series, Tarl Cabot is a frustrated (in all ways) liberal arts professor at a New England college full of feminist students in the late '60s before he is zapped away to planet Gor where he is recognized as a True Man of the highest Caste there, a throwback to Primal Manhood, and IRL John Lange (Norman his penname) was an assistant philosophy professor at a New York college in the late '60s.

--There is, in fandom, a technical term for such protagonists...
Re: You might be interested to know - timeliebe - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:28 am (UTC) - Expand
Heh, you're right - bellatrys - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:39 am (UTC) - Expand
quirkypeanutblu
Jul. 16th, 2007 02:11 am (UTC)
WHUT.

Definitely agree with the boycott. Not sure if I agree with some other commenters who said people should boycott Dark Horse entirely. Then again, I don't know the company well enough. If they have a habit of releasing crap like this, they very well may need to be taught a lesson.

P.S. I found your blog! This is Caroline, btw. Is it alright if I friend you?
tammy212
Jul. 16th, 2007 03:17 am (UTC)
>>I found your blog! This is Caroline, btw. Is it alright if I friend you?<<

Of course it is, silly! Welcome!
No, they don't. - bellatrys - Jul. 16th, 2007 01:28 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: No, they don't. - quirkypeanutblu - Jul. 17th, 2007 06:42 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - ronin_kakuhito - Jul. 16th, 2007 05:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - quirkypeanutblu - Jul. 17th, 2007 06:52 am (UTC) - Expand
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