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So Not In My Happy Space

bad day kitten
I have been reading Marvel Comics' Civil War series, which pits superhero against superhero when the country passes laws demanding that superheroes register their real identities with the government. Many heroes obey; others fight; some opt out; many go to prison for believing they have a right to their privacy. (If you're noticing parallels, that's the point.) It's intriguing, depressing, well- or not well- written, depending on the authors. It's a Really Big Thing.

MARVEL COMICS CIVIL WAR #4 SPOILER HERE:
So. One of the many plot lines involves the Fantastic Four. Reed Richards, science nerd, superbrain, stretching guy, and the epitome of Germaine Greer's Father Phallus, is on the side of the act's enforcers, helping to come up with ways to round up and register dissenters, including former friends of his (Captain America leads the strongest group of those who fight against the registration). Johnny Storm, the Torch, was beaten up by an anti-hero mob and put in the hospital in a coma. Sue Storm, Reed Richards' wife, the series' ÜberMom, powerful Invisible Girl, and the glue holding the Four together, has been begging Reed to visit Johnny, who is family. Reed has been finding excuses. He's also been ignoring her attempts to discuss her unhappiness with the registration act, the arrests, and his part in the whole thing. She's been getting angrier and unhappier. I've been wondering what she sees in this clueless dipstick all along. In Civil War #4, she finally does it. She bails. And here's the letter:
(I said this was a festering boil of a spoiler. If you didn't get that, I'm not sorry and you didn't read the big spoiler notice up above.)
My darling Reed ...
I know Johnny's out of the hospital and the family is back together again. I know I should be happy, but I'm not.
I'm so ASHAMED of you right now, and ashamed of myself for supporting your fascistic plans. I hate what I've become, and that's why I'm joining Cap's SECRET AVENGERS team.
Please understand: This is not another cry for attention. This is not me trying to distract you from your all-important work.
This is because our hands are soaked in [XXXXX]'s BLOOD and you're so blinded by your graphs and social projections that you can't even SEE it.
Johnny and I will be working UNDERGROUND from now on, and that's obviously no place for Franklin and Valeria {the other kids}.
That's why I've left them in your care and beg you to give them the time you have so often DENIED them in the past.
I also didn't want your last memory of me to be tainted with all the blazing fights we've had in recent weeks.
Hence the oily-fish dinner (good brain-food), the bottle of your favorite claret (an excellent anti-oxidant) and making love one final time (good for the immune system).
I hope I don't look like a coward for leaving this way. I hope you don't think I'm a bad wife or, worse still, a bad mother.
I'm doing this for the best of reasons and pray that your genius can RESOLVE this thing before one side ends up slaughtering the other.
I love you, Reed. More than anything in the world.
Please fix this.
Susan.
XXX


Okay. He's a fascist. He's got blood on his hands. He's helping to lead the side that she is about to fight against. But she hopes his "genius" can resolve things for both sides (one assumes well, so she and Johnny Storm don't die). She asks her fascist to "fix this." She leaves her children with said bloody-handed fascist whom she herself says has denied them his time in the past.
PLUS
She's not going off to a church social, folks--she's going off to fight, in a war, in which friends of hers have been mauled, imprisoned, and killed; she has just declared herself and her intentions to a man she knows has positioned himself securely in the leadership councils of those who have brought all of this down on them, and . . .
she fixed him a smart dinner
she poured out his favorite vino, which is also heart-healthy
and she gave him a farewell TUMBLE.

This is supposed to be a female hero? This is supposed to be a rational, intelligent woman? This reads like a kewpie doll with a squeak and a writing chip programmed by someone who wasn't mouthing the words as he went! It's not just me, is it? She just talked both ends against the middle and told a man she accuses of being a murderer that he's responsible but he can kiss and make it all better and she's helped to make him healthier while she goes and fights on the other side? Does that mean it'll be okay if she and all of her friends get killed?

The writer is Mark Millar. And I am just out of my mind with this. I've seen some comic book females made to say crazy stuff, but this is just too twisted. What was he thinking Was he thinking? Or does he believe this is what really goes on inside a woman's--inside a mother's--head?

These are the days when you wish the characters could just rear out of the pages and sock the writers.

Comments

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janni
Sep. 25th, 2006 05:22 am (UTC)
I can almost buy cooking dinner for him one last time -- having watched my mother make sure my father had a hot meal waiting every night even as they were in the process of getting divorced -- so long as it were shown as being a bit dysfunctional.

It's the telling him all her plans when she goes that would make me want to scream, though.

That and leaving the kids with him.
tammy212
Sep. 25th, 2006 03:44 pm (UTC)
I defer to your experience of cooking for the partner you're dissolving with--my own parents' breakup was WWIII, and I can't imagine doing things for a spouse I'd decided to leave. Not that I cook. What got me is that she's not leaving him because she's off to find herself, or to live with someone else. She's off to take arms against him and all he stands for. Isn't feeding him giving aid and comfort to the enemy at this point?

Leaving the kids in the hands of the enemy who can be counted on to brainwash them is Bad. She knows he's been neglectful in the past: Very Bad. She has done all of the caretaking--no servants, no Johnny, and Ben Grimm won't be around, even. So . . . who's going to feed and clothe and hear their little prayers? Mr. Absent-Minded Absentee Fascist Professor? Robots? Tony Stark's Ironman?

Next to "Women in Refrigerators," for the dead female superheroes, kin, and lovers of superheroes, discarded so the heroes can have a Cause or because they're no longer of interest to the male writers, perhaps we ought to have "Kids in Crates." It's a place for them to stash the children of superheroes when they can't be bothered to think through how real women are forced to deal with their kids when they have to go off to honorably oppose their men, do superhero stuff, and conveniently forget the impedimenta the writers added to show they're Real Women.

Bitter, me? Oh, a tad.
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I don't think most mothers would trust their children into danger - (Anonymous) - Oct. 16th, 2006 09:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Other ChildCare Options. - (Anonymous) - Oct. 17th, 2006 03:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Oct. 20th, 2006 02:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
Thanks - (Anonymous) - Oct. 28th, 2006 05:56 pm (UTC) - Expand
Sues Letter - (Anonymous) - Oct. 29th, 2006 12:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sues Letter - janni - Oct. 29th, 2006 02:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
lnhammer
Sep. 25th, 2006 06:30 pm (UTC)
Oy. Most of those I can buy if sufficiently justified, even unto being a walking intelligence leak, but not the children. There have to be some relatives she could park them with. Also, the awful writing in that letter.

Yet more reasons for why I tend to be completely uninterested in American superhero comics.

---L.
(Anonymous)
Sep. 25th, 2006 08:21 pm (UTC)
They have their moments. They do. (Okay, my husband and I are trying to write one, so I'm prejudiced.) This was just not one of them.
(no subject) - tammy212 - Sep. 25th, 2006 08:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - lnhammer - Sep. 25th, 2006 10:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
karenhealey
Oct. 2nd, 2006 11:22 am (UTC)
OH HOLY HELL.

That's... not Sue Storm. It's a Doom Bot, so obviously so that Reed is meant to realise that it's a Doom Bot - because the woman he knows would *never* be so irrational - and fret about where the *real* Sue is, thus leaving him wide open for the attack of DOOM.

That blasted Richards.

Wait, no? You mean Mark Millar is actually *this* bad? I thought his take on battered women in Ultimates was foul, but *this*.
tammy212
Oct. 2nd, 2006 12:19 pm (UTC)
"Wait, no? You mean Mark Millar is actually *this* bad? I thought his take on battered women in Ultimates was foul, but *this*."

This is why I quoted the damned thing verbatim, because I knew if I tried to paraphrase, someone would say, "Aw, g'wan--you're just pullin' my lariat," or "You're some clueless newbie who got The Great One All Wrong." (Not you, but you know it gets kinda tempestuous in the comics blogosphere.)

Nothing about Millar's treatment of women caught me as this skewed before, but I think I'm going to have to go back and re-read what I have. This doesn't just happen overnight.

What really bugs me is that I'm not a Fantastic Four fan, partly because of the archetypes, and even I know the real Sue Storm would let herself be pulled to pieces by runaway horses that do this.
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dianakingston
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:51 pm (UTC)
I'm not disagreeing with you regarding Sue and Storm specifically, but in fairness, Marvel's been doing okay with women on the whole - Rogue's leading her own team (and not so she can butt heads with Gambit like last time), "Runaways" has some great female protagonists, Spider-Girl survived another cancellation, and of course, we've got Angela Del Toro about to step up to the plate. It's not ideal, there are still some writers who should stick to grown men in tights spanking each other, but at least the Marvel Universe is on the right track.
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As Long As Angela Isn't (choose one) - timeliebe - Oct. 17th, 2006 05:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
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:) Thank You! - timeliebe - Oct. 18th, 2006 11:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: :) Thank You! - jlbarnett - Oct. 19th, 2006 09:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: :) Thank You! - tammy212 - Oct. 20th, 2006 12:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: :) Thank You! - jlbarnett - Oct. 20th, 2006 09:04 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Re: Anti-Black Panther/Storm Wedding = Racism? - (Anonymous) - Oct. 28th, 2006 12:51 am (UTC) - Expand
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Re: Anti-Black Panther/Storm Wedding = Racism - (Anonymous) - Oct. 28th, 2006 12:55 am (UTC) - Expand
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Why the X-Men will miss Storm - (Anonymous) - Oct. 30th, 2006 02:23 am (UTC) - Expand
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(Anonymous)
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:18 pm (UTC)
When you
What, are you on your period? You broads love to complain and complain and complain.

How about this, if you were any good at writing comics and women comic characters, you'd be much more successful than your stupid haircut and awful fashion choices let on.

Try and doll yourself up and be a real woman, and not this awful uber bitch the woman's movement has brainwashed you into thinking you should be.
dianakingston
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:34 pm (UTC)
*LOL* Yeah, try this again when you hit puberty. :)
Re: When you - tammy212 - Oct. 16th, 2006 09:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: When you - hypno - Oct. 18th, 2006 02:08 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: When you - tammy212 - Oct. 18th, 2006 03:26 am (UTC) - Expand
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oneminutemonkey
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:26 pm (UTC)
Good to see you on LJ, Tamara. Love your stuff with a passion, especially the Trickster's duology. Looking forward to reading Beka Cooper. :>

Just to warn you, in case you didn't know, Rich Johnston at Lying In The Gutters linked to this entry, so you may be getting a few extra visitors.
tammy212
Oct. 16th, 2006 09:59 pm (UTC)
::whimpers::

Ah. I was wondering where all the company had come from, and me still in curlers with nothing in the fridge!

Merci pour les compliments, by the way!

Tammy
(Anonymous)
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:28 pm (UTC)
go cook me dinner
dianakingston
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:35 pm (UTC)
Now, Mark, just because she didn't like your story, doesn't mean you can be mean to her. If you can't play with others I'm just going to have to send you to the Naughty Chair.
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dianakingston
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:30 pm (UTC)
Well, it is Mark Millar, the guy who can't go ten minutes without writing a rape scene... the only person more ill-suited to handle female heroines would be Dave Sim.

If you're in the market for an ideal interpretation of Sue, though, I recommend Mark Waid's run on "Fantastic Four" from a few years ago: he depicted her as Reed's equal in the marriage, someone who didn't have his intellect but whose understanding of people (including Reed himself) surpassed his. It was the first time I ever saw the Invisible Woman as an independent, individual character rather than an appendage.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 03:39 am (UTC)
well...
<
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<the [...] sim.>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<<the only person more ill-suited to handle female heroines would be Dave Sim.>>

You forgot Brad Meltzer.
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Yay! It's Diana Kingston! - magentathompson - Nov. 4th, 2006 05:38 am (UTC) - Expand
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In your very own words, Diana: - magentathompson - Nov. 4th, 2006 04:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(Anonymous)
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:40 pm (UTC)
P.C. Prigg writes:
Why worry, dear? Your comic can be as mediocre, doctrinaire and dull as you like and it'll still get the nod from the indie/artcomix crowd.
dianakingston
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:54 pm (UTC)
Re: P.C. Prigg writes:
Actually, going by "New Avengers", a comic can be mediocre, "doctrinaire" (?) and dull and still sell through the roof. So she's got nothing to worry about. :)
Re: P.C. Prigg writes: - tammy212 - Oct. 17th, 2006 12:34 am (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Oct. 16th, 2006 08:48 pm (UTC)
Sue's Letter
I really don't have a problem with the tumble, the fish, or the wine. Maybe Sue's disappointed more than storming off to become a resistance member. I would hope that Millar isn't going to feature her in some six page stomping session with Thor. What I do have a problem with is the fact that the letter was a waste of space. It did nothing to advance the story, and would seem to fit better into a Fantastic Four issue than as a way of filling space in Marvel's big whiz bang event.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 16th, 2006 09:05 pm (UTC)
Re: Sue's Letter
The funny thing is that Sue's leaving was ALSO told in the next issue of the FF, and NONE of this happened. Instead, she had an argument with Reed, used her force field powers to blast a hole in the Baxter Building, and just disappeared.

Didn't even mention the kids.
Re: Sue's Letter - tammy212 - Oct. 17th, 2006 12:35 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sue's Letter - (Anonymous) - Oct. 16th, 2006 09:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sue's Letter - tammy212 - Oct. 17th, 2006 03:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sue's Letter - jlbarnett - Oct. 19th, 2006 09:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sue's Letter - tammy212 - Oct. 21st, 2006 10:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
oneminutemonkey
Oct. 16th, 2006 09:22 pm (UTC)
Thinking about it, in retrospect, I can understand her wanting to leave the kids in the Baxter Building.
Yes, Reed's an asshole. Yes, he doesn't deserve them. Yes, Sue wasn't thinking this through... or was she?
The Baxter Building is still a place full of highly-advanced technology, superior defenses, and now it's probably got even extra protections courtesy of the government/military/establishment superheroes. The kids would be safer there than if they went with Sue... who knows full well what she's getting herself into when she goes to join the Secret Avengers.

Think about it: the SA are essentially guerilla freedom fighters. No fixed place of safe residence, always on the move and in battle. Probably apt to get KILLED by the government side now. No fit place for the kids. So Sue can't take them with her.

Where can she leave them? The Inhumans are right out; they've declared war on America for that whole Terrigen Mists/Quicksilver mess. She'd just be sending them into another hot spot in the making. I doubt the Black Panther would want to babysit. Atlantis? Possibly, but again, they're a semi-hostile nation. Fire them into another dimension? Fire them into another time period? Shoot them into the Negative Zone? Those are all things Reed might do, but I don't think Sue would place her trust in sending the kids that far away. Not again. You never know what'll happen. Oh, can't have Agatha Harkness babysit; she's dead again.

I think Sue left the kids behind to help shame Reed, and force him to stop and think. He may be an asshole to his wife, his best friend, and his son-in-law, but... aw hell, he'll probably screw up with the kids also. He's neglected Franklin for years. Decades, even. But the sad truth is that, if you want the kids to be SAFE, they're probably in the least danger right where they are.

Ultimately, I'm really, really, really praying that they explain Reed's behavior away. I'll accept mind-control, clone, evil twin, Skrull, as long as the story's good. Because he's the one that's really been hurt, characterization-wise of late. Well, him and Tony. And Sue. That letter annoyed me. Who the hell talks like that?
"Dear Reed, I've realized we're on the wrong side. Get your head out of your rear. I'm leaving until you come to your senses. Take care of the kids and don't let them get killed. Oh, and keep in mind that last night's sex was the last you'll ever get, unless you shape up. That's why I did everything you liked, one last time. Please stop helping to kill our friends. Love, Sue. P.S. I'll be staying with Namor. In his "guest room.""

Sorry, some of the things I've seen in Civil War really make me rant in strange directions.
dianakingston
Oct. 16th, 2006 09:32 pm (UTC)
Then why not send them to Canada? It's not like she can't trust the Thing.

And the Baxter Building can't be that safe if Reed's cooking up psycho Asgardian clones on the fifth floor...
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Reed returning to normal. - (Anonymous) - Oct. 16th, 2006 11:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Reed returning to normal. - timeliebe - Oct. 17th, 2006 09:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Re: Reed returning to normal. - dianakingston - Oct. 20th, 2006 10:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Reed returning to normal. - (Anonymous) - Oct. 19th, 2006 10:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Reed returning to normal. - jlbarnett - Oct. 21st, 2006 12:44 am (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Oct. 16th, 2006 09:25 pm (UTC)
I'm not anonymous, I'm Rob.

Just to further your exasperation, their son Franklin Richards has been described as the most powerful character in the Marvel Universe. He previously created an alternate Earth in orbit on the other side of the sun, or something.

From Wiki: He is a mutant with vast reality-manipulating powers. Franklin is also considered an Omega-level mutant.

So she left him with a big big gun.
dianakingston
Oct. 16th, 2006 09:31 pm (UTC)
Franklin's been depowered for quite a while now. He's just as vulnerable as Valeria.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 16th, 2006 09:56 pm (UTC)
With Reed is the safest place
Here's the thing. If she took the kids, she would be taking them to a side full of wanted criminals, but leaving them with Reed, they are still safe, and on the right side of the law (not morally right, just right). She can't leave them with Ben because he's leaving the country playing the part of Switzerland. She can't leave them on the Moon because the Inhumans are ready to declare war on the US. Agatha Harkness is dead. Alicia Masters? Well her dad is the Puppet Master who is playing a part in the Civil War, and not as a good guy. Reed is not a bad person. He's just a guy with horse blinders on obeying the law. Does he have blood on his hand? Yes. But that blood is of a criminal wanted by the Govt. Sure, Goliath was his friend, but he was still breaking the law, and in the end... It's the same as if a cop has blood on his hands from shooting a criminal in a worst case scenario.

-Peter
(Anonymous)
Oct. 16th, 2006 10:19 pm (UTC)
Re: With Reed is the safest place
I completely agree Peter.

I have been reading Fantastic Four for years and years and years, and I honestly felt this was totally in character for Sue. Honestly, I thought that his treatment of Sue and the Fantastic Four has been the best of the entire Civil War.

She still LOVES Reed, and she will never see him as an "enemy," she just disagrees with what he is doing, and she knows he thinks what he is doing is right.

-Sammy
She wanted their parting to be good memories, she wanted him to have something to hold onto instead of having some big fight then leaving. (Never go to bed angry)

The 2nd to last issue of MK4 by Roberto Sacasa was GREAT foreshadowing of the different point of views that Sue and Reed have pre-Civil War. After reading that issue, everyone would have known how Sue would have reacted to CW.

I also feel that leaving the children with Reed was the right choice. She may disagree with what he is doing, but she knows he would never endanger his children, and living with him would be a much safer place for the kids since she's the one who will be hunted by the law, not him.

Franklin has "mental blocks," but he still has powers just not as powerful right now until a good writer takes over for JMS (who just doesn't write the kids as well).

I honestly believe that Sue was demonstating strength by leaving to join the resistance, but she didnt have to go out in a fiery blaze of glory. She went out peacefully because she didnt want some big blow out, and she went out with good memories in case those are the last.

Reed will never be the enemy to her, they are just on a different side for a while.

Plus I really, honestly believe that she is joining the resistance to make sure no one else dies (like a protector of the wanted heroes), rather than an aggressor.
Re: With Reed is the safest place - (Anonymous) - Oct. 17th, 2006 02:56 am (UTC) - Expand
ultimatejrp
Oct. 16th, 2006 10:21 pm (UTC)
Just curious
Have you read Sue's portrayal in the Fantastic Four tie-in? Do you think it's better than how she was portrayed in Civil War?

To be fair, you need to read both issues before damning Sue's portrayal. Even if Marvel doesn't market it that way.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 16th, 2006 10:57 pm (UTC)
Great commentary
That letter made me nauseous when i read it

Lets hope the kids have a good nanny at the Baxter Building though
Re: Great commentary - (Anonymous) - Oct. 17th, 2006 12:23 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Great commentary - ultimatejrp - Oct. 17th, 2006 12:35 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Great commentary - (Anonymous) - Oct. 17th, 2006 02:05 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Just curious - tammy212 - Oct. 17th, 2006 03:42 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Just curious/off topic - tammy212 - Oct. 20th, 2006 12:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Just curious/off topic - ultimatejrp - Oct. 20th, 2006 08:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Just curious/off topic - timeliebe - Oct. 21st, 2006 09:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 01:04 am (UTC)
It's just you. Get over it.
taliabriscoe
Oct. 17th, 2006 01:16 am (UTC)
Marvel marriages in general
It's not even just this portrayal of Sue that gets my blood boiling. I've been on simmer ever since Marvel decided to kill of Jean Grey so that Cyke could move on to Emma (after their affair. Ew). It seems like many of the men writing comics today have no respect for married couples. Need a little drama in a book? Insert temptation for a spouse or create a marital rift... never mind if it's out of character as long as you sell stories. Sigh.

Would it really kill them to present strong marital relations to their audience. They sure don't mind tooting the horn of alternative lifestyles...which is fine by me, really, but I'd like to see the stable hetero couple get some screen time. Instead it's all dysfunction all the time.
slive85
Oct. 17th, 2006 03:51 am (UTC)
Re: Marvel marriages in general
Dsyfunction is a lot more entertaining. Would you really want to read a comic about a superhero couple shopping for curtains and having a nice little Saturday?
Re: Marvel marriages in general - tammy212 - Oct. 17th, 2006 03:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Re: Marvel marriages in general - tammy212 - Oct. 21st, 2006 10:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Marvel marriages in general - jlbarnett - Oct. 21st, 2006 02:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Marvel marriages in general - tammy212 - Oct. 21st, 2006 11:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Marvel marriages in general - jlbarnett - Oct. 21st, 2006 11:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Marvel marriages in general - (Anonymous) - Nov. 27th, 2006 02:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Marvel marriages in general - (Anonymous) - Nov. 29th, 2006 04:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Marvel marriages in general - venommelendez - Nov. 9th, 2011 06:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Marvel marriages in general - caldivine510 - Oct. 28th, 2006 08:55 am (UTC) - Expand
slive85
Oct. 17th, 2006 01:36 am (UTC)
Mark Millar is probably the most entertaining writer at Marvel these days. I happen to enjoy Civil War. It is very entertaining and Sue's letter helped advance the plot. I don't have a problem with it and I really think your making too big of a deal out of a plot point in a mini series that has yet to even conclude.

Besides, Mark is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. He might go over the top sometimes in his comics, but it's almost always entertaining. Give him a break.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 02:58 am (UTC)
Sue
AN interesting discussion re: males writing female characters in comics. I would like to know how Sue could ever want another man after sex with Mr Fantastic{His penis would be remarkable in accomodating her vagina)
No wonder she had a final tumble and made him dinner. I predict she'll be back as soon as she misses sex!
My fav writer is Susanna Clarke( Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell)Why isn't she writing Sue Storm ( chortle)
Sue - (Anonymous) - Oct. 17th, 2006 02:59 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - destro - Oct. 17th, 2006 04:07 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 17th, 2006 02:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jennifergearing - Oct. 20th, 2006 04:42 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 20th, 2006 12:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jennifergearing - Oct. 20th, 2006 01:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 21st, 2006 04:08 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jennifergearing - Oct. 21st, 2006 04:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 22nd, 2006 10:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jennifergearing - Oct. 22nd, 2006 10:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Now THAT'S a knife! - slive85 - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now THAT'S a knife! - jennifergearing - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now THAT'S a knife! - tammy212 - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now THAT'S a knife! - jennifergearing - Oct. 23rd, 2006 12:39 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Now THAT'S a knife! - stephendann - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - deisme - Oct. 29th, 2006 03:36 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stephendann - Oct. 21st, 2006 04:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 22nd, 2006 10:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stephendann - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:12 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jennifergearing - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stephendann - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 23rd, 2006 01:35 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jennifergearing - Oct. 23rd, 2006 03:47 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 23rd, 2006 04:03 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tammy212 - Oct. 22nd, 2006 01:53 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 22nd, 2006 10:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jennifergearing - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - slive85 - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jennifergearing - Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tammy212 - Oct. 23rd, 2006 12:01 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jennifergearing - Oct. 23rd, 2006 12:36 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - stephendann - Oct. 23rd, 2006 12:39 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - dinopollard - Oct. 17th, 2006 07:07 am (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - tammy212 - Oct. 17th, 2006 03:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 03:38 am (UTC)
This is just my personal beef. I ask for consistency. In The Civil War mini, we see Sue steal away in meek fashion, whereas the event as told in the pages of Fantastic Four has Sue roaring like nobody's business (and causing some property damage in the process) before flying off. A quiet disappearance versus a strong slap in the face. Now, I can live with small bits of difference when it comes to two writers covering the same event, but where in the hell is editorial here! These are two different women!

I'm one of those led here by Rich Johnston, but will say that your frank talk about something going on at a company that employs you has inspired me to return on a more frequent basis...
telemachus73
Oct. 17th, 2006 08:52 pm (UTC)
This really irked me as well. Not only is the scene in Fantasic Four completely different from the one in Civial War, the two scenes seem to me to be mutually exclusive. Civil War shows her leaving Reed quietly and secretly, while FF shows her pitching a huge fit and smashing everything before also leaving Reed. There's just no way those two scenes could both happen.
(no subject) - cryforlife - Oct. 19th, 2006 01:09 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jlbarnett - Oct. 19th, 2006 09:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - cryforlife - Oct. 19th, 2006 10:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
Sue Can Protect Herself Just Fine, But... - timeliebe - Oct. 22nd, 2006 12:55 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tammy212 - Oct. 21st, 2006 11:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
dinopollard
Oct. 17th, 2006 07:02 am (UTC)
I remember I used to absolutely love Mark Millar's writing. Then I graduated high school and realized how completely infantile and juvenile he really is. This is a guy who has made his career by stringing together a bunch of one-liners, perverse jokes and shock moments and then passes it off as a story while completely ignoring those little things like "plot progression" and "character development."

The CIVIL WAR event has overall been better than I expected. I find myself absolutely loving the work done on some of the satellite titles, like CIVIL WAR: X-MEN, FRONTLINE, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, and NEW AVENGERS. But the CIVIL WAR title itself is complete and utter shit and full of predictable plot twists and horrible characterization.

You've got Tony Stark who's been holding onto a strand of Thor's hair for the better part of a decade (in Marvel time), making deals with guys like Bullseye and the Green Goblin to hunt down some of his closest friends; after years of fighting tooth and nail to keep his secret safe for the protection of his family, Spider-Man outs himself on national television after Tony tells him to and violates so many of his own principles; Reed Richards is off playing Frankenstein and drilling into heads; Sue gives Reed a farewell hump then calls him a fascist and leaves her kids with him; every character who isn't an A-list character is written as completely inept and can't even wipe their own ass without Cap telling them to; and of course we have to have the "blackrifice" of Goliath/Bill Foster (after Millar bashed DC for shock tactic deaths in INFINITY CRISIS that mean nothing, he does the same thing -- but tosses in a funeral scene and expects us to believe that it's deep and meaningful).

I was prepared to hate CIVIL WAR. But I started reading it and it actually impressed me at first. Then issue #4 comes out. Now we have three issues to go, and I'm afraid to ask what Millar is going to do next to fuck things up even more.
tammy212
Oct. 18th, 2006 03:33 am (UTC)
I confess, the cloning of Thor, and the chip-and-release-to-fight-on-OUR-side of citizens like Bullseye has my hair standing on end.

But I've been loving X-Factor, Spider-Man (even though I think unmasking him is a huge mistake, I'm fascinated to see how it all plays out), Wolverine, Front Line, and especially New Avengers 22, Luke Cage's shining moment.

I have all of the issues except the FF fight one and the Punisher war journals, because I want to see how this humongo thing is going to work. Simply as an orchestration it's highly instructive, and my hat's off to Marvel for having the b--imagination to attempt it. In some ways it's like watching a 20-car pileup, and yet there's really powerful stuff being done here. And of course the allegories for the current political scene are heartbreaking. We may hate parts of it even as we love other parts, but nobody's going to forget it.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 08:27 am (UTC)
hopeful for Happy Space
I've read comics since 1962, and FF is my favorite creation, although there have been years when I've had to stay away. I have never once posted on a message board, because I feel everyone has a right to their opinion on fictional creations. I just wanted to take a moment of your time and share a couple of thoughts on Civil War, and a bit on Sue's portrayal.

I've had some problems with Reed's characterization, because it only seems consistent with the obsessive side to his personality. We've seen him lost in his lab before, but the current story seems to be playing it out to an extreme. Because these are not MY sandbox toys however, I'm willing to hold my judgment to see if by the end of the series what I consider to be an aberration gets resolved. I have the feeling that I'm going to be dissatisfied with the final outcome, but I can't really condemn it yet.

On the subject of Sue, however, I may have a point that's been unrepresented in our discussion: The icons of Sue, Reed, Ben and most-times Johnny, and their family as a whole, are some of the strongest morally that have been created in comics. They are literally stand-up-guys. The way that they feel about one-another and the confidence they have in each other (certainly as set up by Jack and Stan)is an archetype and (for me) resonates in a way that only Spider-Man sometimes matches in the Marvel U. Cap might be the strength of our nation, and Thor what we aspire to, but the FF love each other.

Sue thinks Reed is wrong and lost. She does not think he's bad. A mistake he's made has gotten someone killed and she can't see why that doesn't wake him up to the essential and horrible flaw in what he's trying to help do. But please remember that it was a path she shared up until this incident.
--And we can't keep going to the "more bad writing" well: this is someone's story and the issues they've presented are indeed complex enough that anyone could take a wrong turn while they're discovering their way. I think what makes many of these characters more real than the adolescents in Washington is that they are adult enough to change their minds when they see the consequences.

Sue left the children with Reed because they're safest in The Baxter Building and she knows that Reed will step up to the plate. She cannot in her heart make the decision that Ben has made, which would enable her to leave the field and take the kids with her. Sue is someone who makes quicker decisions than Ben, and is certainly a deeper thinker, and she went to the other side because the people in this family fight for what they think is right. Johnny went with her (in my assumption), because he's pretty sure she's right and he knows his place is with her.

Sue made love to Reed because she loves him deeply. It was not pity sex: the only thing that makes it poignant is that she loves this man and wants him to love her, but she is now diametrically opposed to the path he's consciously taking. She knows that he's almost irretrievably lost in an incredibly convoluted issue for which she hopes he's also the (only) solution (as do I).

Forgive me if my logic floats at times: I don't mean to take easy shortcuts, but I've only taken one pass at this and it's the end of a very long day and long past midnight. Thanks very much everyone for your time.

Jeffrey Stackhouse
(Anonymous)
Oct. 19th, 2006 04:05 pm (UTC)
Re: hopeful for Happy Space
Jeffrey, thank you for articulating my EXACT thoughts on this part of the CIVIL WAR event! You have my utmost gratitude as well for showing me that I'm not the only one who is reading this story with a sense of the history of these characters (coming from being a long-time reader.)

Of course, we can only HOPE that Millar's writing here actually springs from a similar understanding and not from any of the reasons being stated by a lot of our fellow posters.

curtis king
Re: hopeful for Happy Space - tammy212 - Oct. 20th, 2006 01:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: hopeful for Happy Space - (Anonymous) - Oct. 29th, 2006 10:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
shadesong
Oct. 17th, 2006 11:19 am (UTC)
Poor characterization-of-Sue. Did you see the first episode of the FF cartoon? At the news of Johnny's kidnapping, she fainted.

Yes. They had Sue Storm faint.

o_O

...yeah. I didn't bother watching the second episode...
mr_ducktape
Oct. 18th, 2006 05:31 pm (UTC)
You did better than me - I couldn't make it past the first five minutes.
(no subject) - tammy212 - Oct. 21st, 2006 11:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 12:37 pm (UTC)
Thank you so much. But Sue is doing better than Iron Man. Poor Tony...even WIZARD MAGAZINE is calling "shenanigans"...and Wizard is a hype machine!

Civil War will be one of those crossovers that will be retconned by another crossover. Mark my words.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 01:29 pm (UTC)
If Sue is going to go on the run and live in a seedy S.H.I.E.L.D. underground base with the rest of the resistance and go to war with other meta-humans would it really be wise and/or safe to bring her children along? Honestly? They would be safer in the baxter building then on the run with their mum, I don't just fault Miller, JMS who writes Fantastic Four monthly could have given some spotlight on what's happening with the kids rather then reccle script from Amazing Spider-Man (but I degress) Reed Richards has been out of character for all of Civil War and even before that, look at Mark Waid's run on Fantastic Four, Reed eventually recognised that he at times ignored his children and went on to rectify that.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 02:20 pm (UTC)
Mark Millar
For all of Mark Millar's "Great and Powerful OZ" bluster, I'm happy to see that many of my fellow fans are finally starting to see the "humbug" lurking behind the curtain.

One part destructive little boy, another part drunken misogynist, his subtlety-free explosion/kick-to-the-face wise-assery has pretty much run its course. Once the cocky champion of comicdom's all-nite pub circuit (Euro bureau), he's now become our favorite "ailing but getting better" sympathy case. Sadly, his chronic health problems seem to have brought ZERO maturity to his work, with Millar still churning out the same old slop, with all the subtlety of a semi-truck of explosives crashing into a porn shop.

-Mark Engblom
http://comiccoverage.typepad.com/
slive85
Oct. 22nd, 2006 11:25 pm (UTC)
WORST WRITER EVER!
title or description
Re: WORST WRITER EVER! - tammy212 - Oct. 23rd, 2006 12:07 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: WORST WRITER EVER! - slive85 - Oct. 23rd, 2006 01:29 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Mark Millar - timeliebe - Oct. 23rd, 2006 04:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 03:16 pm (UTC)
public
I agree with u completely. Even I as a man can see she is written badly as is everyone else in the series.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 17th, 2006 03:46 pm (UTC)
Fair enough.
I might quibble over some tiny details here or there, but overall, you make a good (if uber-ballsy) point.

And yeah, I found this via "Lying in the Gutters."

Peace.


-West

west3man.blogspot.com
(Anonymous)
Oct. 19th, 2006 07:31 pm (UTC)
Re: Fair enough.
No one reading this Civil War shit or writing it even thinks any of this through. It's not use trying to rationalise it. You'll just get a "LOLZ get LOST fANb0Yz!!!" which really means "we're imature and lazy". Give it up. You're getting ridiculed by dumb Howard Stern fans.
Re: Fair enough. - tammy212 - Oct. 20th, 2006 01:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Fair enough. - tammy212 - Oct. 20th, 2006 01:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
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