Before I say anything else: I had a wonderful time at Penguicon. I was treated like a goddess. I met many wonderful, intelligent, cool fans and many more wonderful, intelligent, cool, creative people. I got to meet my absolute favorite webcomic writer/artist, Jennie Breeden (how favorite? we both squeed and fangirled for five minutes when we met--she's a fan of mine--and had dinner and lunch and got photos taken and made arrangements to meet at DragonCon) and the very excellent writer Cherie Priest, and got to see the wonderful
![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small}
matociquala, writer Elizabeth Bear. I spoke all too briefly to Jim Hines (whose Goblin War books are popular with teens as well as adults), and then never saw him again, which tells you how mad the con was! I also met writer Sarah Monette, Matthew Keaton, and met writer John Scalzi for the second time, all with excellent results in the brain stimulation and panel discussions department.I had the best baked goods (baking goddess Deb) and fudge (fudge goddess Kimba) I've had in years. Tim geeked out until he had no words. Or rather, the ones he kept trying to force on me didn't sound like English. I stood fascinated by the Chaos Device for at least 15 minutes as the young man working on it showed me the level of it that he was maintaining (he was about four feet tall, so he had his limits, but he knew how all the parts worked). And I met many strong, intelligent, creative, passionate, geeky, amazing young women.
I saw no one grabbing their breasts. I didn't even hear of this until yesterday. It wasn't an occasion where people were running around grabbing women's breasts. Neither Tim nor I saw or heard of any such behavior. It was limited to a small group, a tiny percentage of the con. I understand the group has since shut down their . . . social experiment.
So here is the post that blew the whole thing open on the Internet (the original is below the updates).
tekanji supplies this list of links to discussions:Badgerbag's comments
the-red-shoes
Sinboy
coffeeandink
littlebutfierce
peaseblossom
ktempest
jfpbookworm
Feminist SF
James Nicoll
Cynthia1960
cynthia1960
springheel-jack
springheel-jack
springheel-jack
brown-betty
misia
petronelle
odditycollector
pleonastic
fengi
fengi
drownedinink
coffeeandink (Different post than linked above)
kate-nepevu
nihilistic-kid
upstart-crow
hahathor
cjouchan
cereta
nestra
scalzi
kadymae
vito-excalibur
jim-smith
cyberpilate
jarodrussell
kadymae
Getofftheinternet.org
vito-excaliibur
coffeeandink
troubleinchina
coffeeandink
brown-betty
Metafilter.com
awelkin
sparkymonster
sinboy
Girl-Wonder.org
The Iris Network
synedochic
--------------------
edited to add synedochic
--------------------
These include other people's reactions and points. If you look at the comments to those links, you'll find still more reactions. As you can see, a lot of feminists are scorching mad, and I can't blame them.
Here's my take. This is something embarked upon by consenting adults. Fine. Although contrary to the ferret's claim that no one was approached randomly in the halls, he himself writes of the woman in the princess outfit who they approached. The women who did this agreed to it, and John Scalzi writes that the woman who first told him about it was a participant and found it wonderful. I'm frankly envious that she is so free within her skin.
But.
I have spent most of my life in the fight to be perceived as a person, not a collection of body parts. "Biology is not destiny" is very important to me for a number of reasons. To read of women offering up their breasts to be fondled like fruit makes me crazy. That's my issue, obviously, not theirs, but it's something a lot of women and men will be thinking about when they observe this behavior, which is taking place in public. I want to ask these women, what message are you sending? You think you are sending the message, I am free in my body; I am proud of my body, but is that the message that people receive?
Most people won't know about the significance of red and green buttons; they will only see people groping other people, in public. Those who see this will be tense, wondering if they will be approached next. They will not feel safe in a space that the con organizers want them to feel safe in. Women who want to have fun and wear the costumes of their superheroes or anime characters will not feel safe. No matter how many times they tell themselves that clothing is not an advertisement for sexual contact, social brainwashing whispers "you're asking for it." They will choose either not to costume, or not to attend a con where they will not feel safe. Their enjoyment and their sense of safety will be destroyed. The con will be hurt when attendance drops, a serious thing when gas and flight prices make congoing more difficult.
Think on: this social experiment can go bad very quickly. All it takes is one woman who thought she'd try it and then feels violated, not liberated, or one man who decides that breast gropage means yes to further gropage. All it takes is outsiders who witness and report it to hotel management, or fans who don't know what's going on to blast what they've seen all over the internet as a SexCon. All it takes is one he said/she said, or worst of all, one rape. One misunderstanding, one person who thinks because the limits are lifted a little, it means they're lifted all the way.
Why was this not done behind closed doors? Why was it done publicly? I don't want to see other women making this kind of choice. To them it's freedom; to me it looks like they are allowing themselves to be treated as objects. Yes, in their own minds they are free, but do they know what is in the minds of those who fondle them, and those who see them fondled? By keeping it private, they have more control over those fondling them being the kind of person who perceives them as free and giving (maybe). But in public they lend themselves to others' perception of women as collections of parts to be handled. Even if they carried big, informative signs or gave PowerPoint demonstrations about their understanding of what they did, they cannot govern the views of others. They perpetuate a perception of women as sex toys, without even meaning to. I wish they had limited the damage.
I had a WONDERFUL time at Penguicon 6. How many people will remember that as the con of the two singing Tesla coils, and the comics artists drawing all over that guy's skull, and the Tron guy and the Ox delivering goodies from Acme? Or will they remember it as the con where guys were grabbing girls' tits?
- Location:home sweet home
- Mood:
irate - Music:"L'excessive," Carla Bruni
Profile
- tammy212
- tammy212
- Tamora Pierce's Homepage
Page Summary
- jimhines : (no subject) [+1]
- mrgoodwraith : (no subject) [+1]
- ronin_kakuhito : (no subject) [+5]
- shivi : (no subject) [+5]
- wyldemusick : (no subject) [+1]
- earthgoat : (no subject) [+8]
- avengangle : (no subject) [+1]
- lost_angelwings : (no subject) [+2]
- tiredfairy : (no subject) [+5]
- prydera : (no subject) [+2]
- ronin_kakuhito : (no subject) [+2]
- beth_bernobich : (no subject) [+2]
- jmeadows : (no subject) [+6]
- bardicwench : (no subject) [+5]
- jennem : (no subject) [+0]
- chaos386 : (no subject) [+0]
- jmaynard : (no subject) [+0]
- morgan_dhu : (no subject) [+2]
- peneli : (no subject) [+0]
- robinellen : (no subject) [+0]
- hrhlizzi : Gutted!! [+4]
- tekanji : (no subject) [+1]
- isako : (no subject) [+0]
- ryuutsurugi : (no subject) [+1]
- andyleggett : (no subject) [+0]
Comments
Also, it was nice getting to talk to you this weekend, however briefly.
Auuggh! I knew I didn't mention someone important! I corrected it, with link to your page! I'm sorry we didn't get to talk more, either. It was fun, but nuts.
It's a very well-reasoned response
Thank you so very much! It took me half a day to reach this point, so I deeply appreciate that!
Common sense--it's not just a good idea. It's--well, common sense.
-- AND DON'T BRAG ABOUT IT IN YOUR BLOG.
Oh, yes!
My personal position on this started somewhere in the realm of neutral-sqwicked and has slowly slid toward a more purely sqwicked as I've read non-polarizing analysis, but it is sort of uncomfortable sliding in that direction because of the sheer amount of reactionary response that is coming from the against position.
Thanks for providing something I can point to for myself and say "This."
I never really thought about the "Somebody Else's Problem invisibility field" but it describes far too well how people turn a blind eye towards wrongdoings. I've always been the sort to come over and make sure folks are all right, but I'm a gutsy tomboy like that.
My own reaction to this was that those involved did not consider the consequences of their actions or the reactions they might get, and Ferrett is fortunate, at least, that non of the more thoughtlessly volatile types were in the vicinity of this, as he would likely have found himself being bollocked -- actually, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that, months from now, he'd been at a con and someone had attacked him over this (missing the point, and ignoring the facts of the situation.)
What had me most dismayed was the virulence of many of the responses -- not the "Well, that was dumb!" reactions, or reactions like yours and Kady Mae's, but the ones whose response was to call for vicious attacks on men in general and Ferrett in particular. The more I see of this, the more I come to despise humanity -- this is what we've made of ourselves.
Interesting that you mention meeting with Jennie Breeden, as Jennie is someone who came to mind with this conflagration -- I'm thinking specifically of her very good-natured kilt-blowing bit (and its accompanying calendar.) The potential is there for a very bad reaction on the part of some kilt-wearing character, but I suspect the general attitude would be that guys ought to go along with it. Can you imagine the reaction of many women on being asked if Jennie could stick a leaf-blower under their skirts for a picture? Or if a male artist/photographer did that?
There's a lot more bubbling through my mind, but enough for now.
Still disappointed that I couldn't go.
Thanks! This is great to hear, since I felt like I was fumbling. . . . (I seem to be the only one, which is a good thing.)
What rly disturbs me is that they believe women's self esteem and worth should be hinged upon male approval and submitting themselves as objects for male consumption. As if we should feel so happy that men deem our breasts as having any worth to them :(
They will choose either not to costume, or not to attend a con where they will not feel safe. Their enjoyment and their sense of safety will be destroyed.
Yus... so yus :(
And just opening this can of worms will get ppl asking women whether they have buttons or not and stuff :( And get guys in the mindset that women at the con are just boobs on a body and that rly that's why they're there. We're toys that exist for their enjoyment, and it'd make a lot of women feel uncomfortable, wondering if every guy is just looking at their boobs, and if they're gonna be approached constantly by guys who want to grope them and stuff :(
As somebody said, it's an idea that works on the internet, applied to real life :( Even the original supporter of the "project" has since recanted and said that upon further thought, it's a bad idea b/c of all the problems so many ppl have alrdy pointed out.
Written this way, it is exactly how it reads, and while theferret, who wrote this, insists this is not the intent, we have to go with the writing. It becomes a Gordian knot, and one that so many guys just don't . . . forgive me for using the word--grok. They haven't grown up with strangers snapping their bras, or people comparing tit size, or guys diving for our shirt fronts in cars, as if they were magnets and the part that was north of the shirt front didn't matter. They haven't sat and simmered during the "Girls Gone Wild" commercials when we are clearly told "Here's the only part of you that really matters." They haven't gone through years of too small/too big; pink/brown, the mammogram sandwich, the cartoons in the guys' notebooks, comic book characters noted primarily for their breast size. It's an outrage if we breastfeed in public, but it's a cause for jubilance if we have too much to drink if we strip off our shirts and dance on tables.
And then there are those who buy bigger breasts to make men happy.
Whatever happened to validating yourself, and everyone else can just swan off?
ETA:
Sorry, Ami. Got a little carried away by the whole "needing validation idea."
Edited at 2008-04-24 06:01 pm (UTC)
I think that, in this culture, with how "public" women's bodies have become...it's hard not to see this as a seriously flawed experiment on both the part of the gropers and the gropees. While the intent may have been to make sexual feelings and touching less closeted, it's just too easy for it look like (and actually be) something entirely different. Especially in the context of a convention setting.
It's great that permission was a large part of this, but after reading the posts on it...it's still objectifying and valuing based entirely in a sexual manner. Breasts are great and everything, but I don't think they're quite the orbs of enlightenment they were being made out to be.
Plus, there is this sense of...entitlement to even ask about the groping. That were people who would probably be "cool" with it because of the way they dressed. Whether they realize it or not, that's a version of the "she dresses that way, she must want it". And that's an unhealthy attitude.
Also, the risk of that spriralling out of control is just far too great. I wouldn't feel safe if I saw that going on, buttons don't really convey an effective sense of "no one will let this get out of hand" to me.
And of course, the women involved can make their own decisions and choices and I don't want to say "oh, they just don't understand..." but in a sense...maybe they don't. Maybe we really have reached the point where a lot of people can't tell the difference between finding strength in celebrating their bodies...and objectifying themselves for the enjoyment of others. I don't know.
For me, reading this, there is a personal sense of...uncomfortable shame. At the San Diego Convention last year I was cornered by two men outside one of the hotels. I had been drawing after some friends had taken off to get some rest. Both men were clearly drunk, were not comics professionals, and they invaded my personal space and backed me up against a wall. One of them proceeded to touch me without permission because he "liked my jacket". It was extremely unpleasant and I completely froze. I managed to extricate myself quietly but it has bothered me since that I didn't make a fuss or try to get help...I just tried to get away with as little issue as possible and escaped to my room.
While this is clearly a different issue and I know this is my personal problem with it, having been in the position of being touched without permission or even consideration of my safety or feelings...this just seems like a disaster that had good, but very misguided, intentions.
I'm sure that's what a lot of us would have done, no matter what we think we *should* have done. That sounds *really* scary. :(
I agree with you that the problem was not that of the consent of the participants, but the complete disregard of consent of the observers. Whether the intent of the act was to be sexual or not groping is seen by society as a sexual act. I would no more grope my partner like that in public than I would participate in the OSBP (not to mention that I object to the name). It has nothing to do with my comfort level as honestly I don't really care, but I wouldn't want to discomfort those around me who didn't consent to witnessing such an action.
You would have been right at home!
Cool people just come here, is all. 8-)
Sure, a few men were open to being asked, but these were the exceptions, and when someone proposed that men should wear buttons saying, "Ask me to feel your breasts," the fellow who started this said it would "make men too passive."
That's when my brain exploded and I had to walk away from the computer for while.
*BLEEP* I missed that one. Given the way my pulse sped up, I'm glad I did.
when someone proposed that men should wear buttons saying, "Ask me to feel your breasts," the fellow who started this said it would "make men too passive."
::headdesk::
Y'know,
REALLY pay attention.
I know I wouldn't have felt comfortable at a con where this was going on, and I would avoid cons this group was attending just for that reason. The only con I've made it to was WFC in Austin, and *everyone* there was so behaved. There was one incident -- some random guy approached my friends and me and did that fishy slimy handshake -- but he wasn't actually attending the con. And when we mentioned how icky and staring-at-our-boobs he was to one of the other conmembers? The staff took him right out of the hotel. *That* made me feel safe.
But if I was at a con and saw someone approach another woman and ask about fondling her breasts? I would not feel safe. Not even if she said no and was left alone.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear it wasn't completely a breast-grabbing con. The image I was getting from the report you cited was scarily similar to a bunch of hormonal teenagers in grown-up bodies, running around, grabbing breasts, and keeping score. *shudder*
And that is why Mr. Steinmetz is good at painting verbal pictures but very very poor at painting the picture he interested in painting. (It wasn't until after a day of reading other people's responses that I realized how much "this is the ferrett, what is he actually trying to say" filtering went on with my initial reading of that post.)
Actually... you and Jennie never stopped fangirling. :) And never stopped talking either! *giggle*
I'll have to pass the word along to Deb that she's the baking goddess. She's
You weren't exactly under a vow of silence yourself, there! I hope you had fun despite all the work, because you were truly wonderful!
Deb is so the baking goddess. This is the FIRST time I've had diabetic baking that was as good as the not-diabetic baking!
To me, the button fiasco reads too much like the Scarlet Letter Redux, and instead of creating an environment where people are comfortable with one another and one another's bodies, it became the equivalent of a high school boy's wet dream.
I also find the communication breakdown between the "advocates" of the project and the people who had problems with the project to be disturbing, since the advocates tended to dismiss women who expressed discomfort and unease with the idea. I've read several comments of, "oh, just get over it," "lighten up," "stop taking everything so seriously," etc., and I find those typical advancements of male privilege and the patriarchy to be particularly upsetting, given that the supposed intent of this project was to help women overcome objectification.
And, then I run into the brick wall of where I fail to understand how increasing objectification via mass gropage somehow makes women's bodies less objectified. But, that's more of a breakdown in perception than anything else...
Oh well, I still wish I could have been there. Were they able to score any Schadenfreude Pie for the hospitality suite like they were hoping? :)
I've been to every Penguicon since the first one. This costume debuted at Penguicon 2. Penguicon is one of the few events I move heaven and earth to go to every year. It's one of my favorite weekends, period.
I'm very, very afraid that this controversy will kill it.
I'm not going to comment on the controversy itself; others have said every word, and taken every position, it's possible to take. I have nothing to add to the debate.
I do have to say that I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you and ask you about your books...and that you didn't wind up with your very own ACME delivery.
Two things that struck me as strongly indicative of the latter interpretation rather than the former:
1. The proposal the women wear buttons - not only does that underline the whole idea that the most important aspect of a woman is her breasts, and the idea that a man should be able to tell what women are "fair game" just by looking at them, but it also relieves one of the biggest fears that young men have when approaching a woman for anything having to do with sex - rejection. If she's wearing a button that says "yes, you can ask," it becomes so much harder for her to then say "...but no, I don't want to be touched by you, here, now."
2. The very one-sided aspect of this. I was at some of those new age "feel good about your body" sessions back when the new age was new, and one of the more important ideas I remember from those days was that it was men as well as women who supposedly needed to learn how to accept and receive touch and feel comfortable with being held and all of that nice stuff. And that because it was all about opening up to sensuality and sexual feelings, but not about becoming aroused, a lot of the touching was gender neutral - men touching men and women, women touching men and women.
And if I go by my own experience and that of most of my friends, there are a lot of men out there who are not at all comfortable with their breasts as organs of pleasure and delight.
So surely, the Open source Breast Project really should have been about men and women touching the breasts of willing men and women, shouldn't it? If that was what it was really about?
According to
Bet you're somewhat excited to meet James Marsters there as well!!
Lizzi x
SQUEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Who looks at the line-up? I blink blearily, go "Oh--another appearance--Tim, it's on the website, yeah?" and go back to work. Though this time it is different because I knew Jennie will be there, and I think a friend mentioned Yanto (from Torchwood) too.
James Marsters! Rosto!
SQUEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
I've reposted the links on a public forum here, though.
You've nicely articulated a number of the issues at hand. If you aren't sick to death of this already, might I also provide links to the unfunnybusiness post, in which many intelligent and generally frabtabulous people discuss a lot of the other issues, and the thread comment in which
Sadly, I think this adds to my fear of going to cons because I think that it's an unhealthy situation. While Ferret apologizes to anyone who might have been 'triggered' by the incident, it seems like a definite afterthought. To be frank, I just see this as a chance for a groping session without consideration of anyone outside of the 'project.' It's upsetting that this behavior could go on at a convention.
I also have issues with the thought that it might cause some women to feel ashamed that they can't be 'proud' or 'open' about their bodies. I think it sends the wrong message to women who feel self conscious about their bodies, and rubs the fact that other people can feel fine about it in their faces. I realize Ferret says that this is praising women's beauty, but I disagree strongly with that. Women can be beautiful and be appreciated by men without this 'experiment.'
Thank you for creating a space where we can feel safe to post about our reservations against this practice.
I think part of the reasons why theferrett and others involved (including myself) tend to downplay the possible impact on witnesses is a) dealing with the cognitive dissonance of knowing the way it went down was a positive experience for yourself and others and not wanting that positive feeling ruined by also knowing it could have been a really bad experience for someone else and we overlooked some of those possibilities and b) it really really REALLY wasn't something that most people at the con even noticed, even though it was happening in the middle of the hallways, or whatever. This more than any other point seems to defend the sense that it was *not* a grope-session or all the other lurid ways people have described it. It involved gently but briefly touching someone through clothes, generally in a "lift" sort of motion under the breast, and without any pinching or going for the nipple, or trying for skin contact. I wasn't around during the feeling of men's butts, but I would expect that to be *more* noticeable, since it's on the outside/back of the body. The breast thing was no more stand-out to bystanders than when I put my hands to a woman's waist or sides and chat with her, before giving her a hug or something.
As to the gropage: I'd say, privately, it's alright between friends in a playful and/or sexulal way (whatev); in public, it's just obscene and creates exactly the problems y'all are talking about.
These idiots need to take the well-being of others into consideration and remember that these cons are for *everyone*, and not just them, and that if they want to go to a place where they can grope, go to a SexCon which has a "free gropage" activity or something like that... I very much doubt people come to things like Penugicon to see that kind of thing, and there should be *some* level of professionalism, decency, *maturity*, and consideration for other people.