It's a very tough issue. Many feminists groups insist that being a woman in more important that being a WOC and vica versa WOC groups insist that that's more important. As a WOC and a feminist I've often felt pulled in seperate directions.

Institutionalized discrimination is the fundamental cause of sexism in American society, at least, and so it is interesting that feminism as an institution should discriminate against women of color. But it is not surprising. Few people have the ability to go beyond criticizing the system to look at themselves. They may demand that you look at yourself, but they themselves often exhibit tendencies that they oppose without realizing it. No one wants to be the oppressor.

Before I've read and thought in detail -- who is Unknown LJ tag?

fwiw, I assumed that you were speaking for yourself, because it was quite clear in the context of the original post that you did not feel welcome in so much of the organized, structural, groups you encountered; I didn't think you were taking anyone to task for failing to use a label, but rather, that you were speaking about what the label personally meant to you, in spite of clashes or difficulties with others who want to own it.

Thanks for clarifying and for being open to discussion.

I really do think that the women who are abandoning the term "feminism" in this context are not abandoning the ideas of equality. They are not like the young women who fear to be called feminist or put feminist organizations on their resumes, or like the women who think there is no need for an equality movement. They're not quitting the fight; they're quitting their so-called allies because no one's fighting beside them. They are rejecting an institution. But I can't shrug in response to that rejection. It's a call for me to examine my privilege and what I'm missing when I think about feminist issues.

It's hard to be clear when the word "feminism" can mean so many things. An idea, a movement, a way of life, a viewpoint on the world, an identity. But even if it's just an idea, it's an idea that must be developed and expanded and examined if we're going to claim that it addresses all women's experiences.

I don't mean to belittle anyone else's experience when I say it, but to acknowledge a commonality, and therefor a wider problem: Organized feminism has failed a lot of us, whether or not we fit into any of the above-mentioned groups.
A friend of mine, for example, is none of the above, but she is a scientist working in academia. Feminist focus in academia tends towards Women's Studies classes and programs, something she has bad experiences with and a poor opinion of consequently, and women in the sciences tend to be ignored by most organizations. Female students of the sciences can feel very unwelcome in the lit-and-Women's-Studies-major populated campus women's groups (I felt very isolated, ten years ago, as the most scientifically-minded member of my campus Women's Center, and I was a theater student, fer cryin' out loud). She and I have both heard more discussion from male scientists about why there aren't more women in the sciences than we have from most feminist groups (and if anybody knows any feminist groups that are actually doing any work on this, I'd love to hear about it).
Most feminist groups are really very narrowly focused, and they miss the concerns of a lot of women.

delux_vivens...

carry on.

Cleanly and concisely put, ma'am.
[:: salutes ::]

Thanks for this. I couldn't comment but I was startled by your last post.

One thing I've been discussing with friends in the wake of AM's book and the Seal Press debacle and so on is that it doesn't seem to do the group any good to develop idols with feet of clay.

Being the face of feminism seems like a bad idea to me, just because women as a group are so diverse, and I'd rather see everybody included than see somebody excluded because they didn't align with "the face". Or to see people feel minimised. I'm hoping for a more generous movement--one that lets people speak up and be heard instead of saying, "I've got your talking points here and I've got the loudest megaphone."

What I'm trying to say is....I want everybody to be heard.

These last two posts on your journal have summed up exactly why I don't want to join white feminists groups, even though I am a white feminist. I am disgusted by how they ignore the racial issues that WOC have to struggle with every day of their lives. Any organization that asks WOC to put their racial issues outside the door is not one that I want to join.

What disgusts me the most, however, is how casually white feminists appropriate the voices and words of WOC. Sarah Marcotte is not the only white feminist to do this. Just look at Oyate's review of My Heart is on the Ground. This kind of crap makes me ashamed to be white.

I wish that WOC would not stop calling themselves feminists, but I can understand why they would. I wish that today's feminism was not dominated by racist white women. Feminism should belong to everybody, not just a small clique of white women who cannot see past their own behinds.

That's all I have to say for now. Thank you for providing a space to say it.

Kellicat.

If this had been what you'd said in your previous post, I would have nodded in agreement, but I wouldn't have been surprised, because this is the sort of valid insight I've come to take for granted from you.

Again, sorry for snapping; as another poster said, your previous post was simply just a shock, and I kind of went into attack-dog argument mode as a result (I suppose because I'm enough of a misanthrope to suspect that a lot of people I respect simply can't be as good as they seem).

I read the conversation between you and delux_vivens with some interest earlier. I run a safe space community for WOC on LJ that are interested in womanism and I'm on that list of bloggers that talked about breaking with feminism in the wake of the Seal Press/Amanda Marcotte fallout.

The thing is when I say I'm done with feminism what I really mean is that I'm done trying to wrestle the mainstream white middle class movement into giving a damn about those of us outside their paradigm. I'm in the middle of creating a new website for WOC where we can talk about our activism without having to fight that same battle of racism or classism or sheer disinterest that seems to plague our interactions with so many current feminist groups. Now, we're still all about working to advance the causes of women everywhere, but for me at least I can no longer try to follow people that won't see me as an equal.

True allies are always welcome, but as I said in my post at ABW, things are at a point now where we have to lead our own movements and fight our own battles and not focus so much energy on trying to build bridges. In some respects feminism is as sick with ism's as the rest of our society and we have enough on our plates from the patriarchy that getting bogged down in trying to cure feminism's ills just doesn't make sense from a resource perspective.

*Sorry for the edits, I'm supervising dinner and typing. Never a good mix.

Edited at 2008-05-02 12:14 am (UTC)

It feels ( to me ) like part of this is an issue of semantics. Because feminism/feminist as terms are applied in various ways it is being interpreted as such. Which makes sense. But to me there is the concept of feminism and the execution of it. And unfortunately the practice can be interpreted by individuals in ways that do not represent the core idea.

For myself, what I gleaned from the original post and this subsequent one, is that there are a few things at work here. One is that the ideology of feminism is something many people (myself included) support, when we're talking about the basic concept of equality for everyone. I follow no movement or group within feminism, I simply believe in the concept of equality. Which is a simplification to a degree, but I find venturing too far out tends to get into the murky waters of further individual interpretation.

To address race, and as a white person it's a subject that inherently fills me with guilt and concern over the privilege I know I have and the prejudices I may not know I harbor...clearly people and groups within feminism have completely and utterly failed when it comes to the concerns of WOC and others. Horrifically. I find it terrible that since the conception of the organized movements/groups (which again, I feel differ from the root ideology) this has continued, and that in this day in age we are still fighting it.

I also believe that part of all this is making sure it stays a talking point. We should all be examining our privilege because most of us have it to some degree or other. Over another group, individual, etc. What troubles me is groups within feminism asking anyone to "wait until we get what we want". That's a tactic of privilege, and utterly indefensible. Because if you wait, it will never happen. For anyone. It has to be a struggle for equality for all, not equality for some. It can not be qualified, separated, etc.

Do I think there are some issues (not groups) that take priority? Yes, when they effect everyone. Choice, healthcare, childcare etc. are issues that benefit everyone and should be at the top of any list. But it cannot be ignored that each of these issues does affect women of social, ethnic, and economic privilege differently.

All of these kinds of discussions are scary, because more often than not we end up giving offense in the last place we wanted to...But what's the solution? How can it be dealt with and actually benefit things in the long run?

For me, both these posts and the subsequent dialog have been very illuminating. They made me uncomfortable and made think, and those are important things. What I've gleaned from Tammy's statements is that, like many other feminists who believe in the core idea but do not participate in the organization, are frustrated. We see the problems, we see the issue with the terms, the privilege, and the people who make all our lives more difficult by speaking for Feminism as a whole, but completely and utterly miss the concept of real equality. I'm tired of them speaking for me as well. But we can't abandon the term because we've fought too long and too hard for it. We've had to explain too many times that it doesn't mean man-hater to be able to let go of it. But it's clear why other people might, when it has clearly let them down so much. It just makes me sad that the term must be abandoned to get the message of how badly this inequality within the movement has been let go.

So I guess what I mean is that I will personally continue to call myself a feminist, and take the time to explain what it means to me when I do. What I believe equality should be. To point out that it is not and should not ever be regarded or implied to be a "white" movement by those who use the term. I think anyone who does is a complete sham, and has lost their way, or any concept of what feminism means.

Equality is, to me, the toughest fight. The battle that will always need to be fought and possibly never won. I think it's a struggle we will always be in, always frustrated by, and hopefully always evolving towards the same goal.

Excellent.

And I agree with you completely--but I'm a feminist who doesn't belong to that little clique, either (many long stories about that and why).

WOC have been messed over for years.

I really appreciated your original post - and I also took in the general sense of pointing out that sometimes organised groups are not somewhere, that a number of us can further our ideal of 'making the world a better place' and fighting that sexism, racism and various other discriminatory 'ism's'. I appreciate this post again - your unique perspective helps me to understand and appreciate the situation, from a very removed perspective.

I was also surprised by your other post.
I know I've thought about abandoning the label 'feminist' (though since I'm a guy, some would say I can't be a feminist anyway, but meh, off topic).
I see feminists and Feminist organizations leaving WOC out in the cold, kick trans* women out of DV shelters, ally with the Religious Reich against sex workers, advocate and support the forced sterilization of poor/disabled/POC women and men, etc.
Most of my blog posts address queer and feminist cissexism (transphobia being the more well-known word) even.
If I leave the label feminist behind it won't be because I'm afraid of being read as a wimp--as an andro/fem, gay, man who was assigned female at birth I have/will deal with worse--but because Feminism and feminists are often just as bigoted as nonfeminists.

(This showcases many of the comments I've seen--I can even tell you where many of the comments are)

Thanks for clarifying your position!

Thanks for the clarification!